More

edit
  • Isn’t this a billion dollar country?
    • Charles Foster or Thomas B. Reed
  • He said it in a moment of excitement, when chasing Americans out of his backyard with brickbats. They used to go there and worship. At bottom he was probably fond of them, but he was always able to conceal it.
  • Rise like lions after slumber
    In unvanquishable number!
    Shake your chains to earth, like dew
    Which in sleep had fallen on you—
    Ye are many; they are few!

Confusing

edit
  • The triumph of the Union is dispensable not only to the existence of our country to the well being of mankind.
    • Horace Greeley, "A Prayer for Twenty Millions", Letter to Abraham Lincoln (August 19, 1862), in the New York Tribune (August 20, 1862) [2]
    • Is it just me, or is this meaningless?
  • America means fair play for all men.
    • Thomas Nast, "The Chinese Question", Harper's Weekly (February 18, 1871) [3] did the artist invent the slogan?

Unsourced

edit

By Americans

edit
  • We can have no ’50-50′ allegiance in this country. Either a man is an American and nothing else, or he is not an American at all.
  • Intellectually I know that America is no better than any other country; emotionally I know she is better than every country.
  • It's pathetic. It really is pathetic. It's sad. We're living in the dark ages in America.
  • We do not consider ourselves threatening. Puzzled when vilified, we assume our accusers must be demented.

It was always accounted a virtue in a man to love his country. With us it is now something more than a virtue. It is a necessity. When an American says that he loves his country, he means not only that he loves the New England hills, the prairies glistening in the sun, the wide and rising plains, the great mountains, and the sea. He means that he loves an inner air, an inner light in which freedom lives and in which a man can draw the breath of self-respect. Men who have offered their lives for their country know that patriotism is not the fear of something; it is the love of something.

  • Ours is the only country deliberately founded on a good idea.
  • Patriotism is easy to understand in America; it means looking out for yourself by looking out for your country.
  • This nation will remain the land of the free only so long as it is the home of the brave.
  • If you take advantage of everything America has to offer, there's nothing you can't accomplish.
  • We are now in a budding police state formerly known as the U.S. of A.
  • We are now finally no better than a backwater banana republic.
  • America, the country where the vast majority of the pathetically stupid, embarrassingly white, and disgustingly rich men live.
  • Sure I wave the American flag. Do you know a better flag to wave? Sure I love my country with all her faults. I'm not ashamed of that, never have been, never will be.
  • I shall know but one country. The ends I aim at shall be my country's, my God's and Truth's. I was born an American; I live an American; I shall die an American.

By naturalized Americans

edit
  • The trouble with these people is that their cities have never been bombed and their mothers have never been told to shut up.
  • America is the land of the uncommon man. It is the land where man is free to develop his genius -- and to get its just rewards.

By non-Americans

edit
  • God has a special providence for fools, drunks, and the United States of America.
  • The American loses no opportunity to acquire wealth. Gain is the subject of all his conversations, and the motive for all his actions. Thus, there is perhaps no civilized nation in the world where there is less generosity in the sentiments, less elevation of soul and of mind, less of those pleasant and glittering illusions that constitute the charm or the consolation of life. Here, everything is weighed, calculated and sacrificed to self-interest.
  • The United States is now a country against its own people and against the people of the world. It is anti-democratic.
  • America is a mistake, admittedly a gigantic mistake, but a mistake nevertheless.
  • While envisaging the destruction of imperialism, it is necessary to identify its head, which is no other than the United States of America.
  • The essential American soul is hard, isolate, stoic and a killer.
  • The United States of America is a threat to world peace.
  • There is no doubt that the United States now feels that they are the only superpower in the world and they can do what they like.
  • In this country, more than any other, esteem is based on wealth. Talent is trampled underfoot. How much is this man worth? they ask. Not much? He is despised. One hundred thousand crowns? The knees flex, the incense burns, and the once-bankrupt merchant is revered like a god.
  • I believe the United States is a truly monstrous force in the world.
  • The U.S. is really beyond reason now. It is beyond our imagining to know what they are going to do next and what they are prepared to do. There is only one comparison: Nazi Germany.
  • We have really everything in common with America nowadays, except, of course, language.

Critical?

edit

Why are the vast majority of these quotes critical? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.114.206.48 (talk) 14:34, 4 April 2006 (UTC)Reply

    • Oh please. France funded genocide in Rwanda just a decade ago and I don't see any overly-critical quotes on the French wikiquote page. This is not an outlet for your ideology, however vacuous and myopic it may be. A lot of these quotes hardly even relate to the country in the first place, and some are even duplicates. One quote by Thomas Paine and three by Michael Moore? What an embarrassment.

One word, Communists!*sarcasm*

Really, if that many people hate America for whatever faults it has, know that America is one of the best nations to change and challenge the status quo, and one of the few nations where it needn't come from the barrel of a gun. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.66.212.175 (talk) 18:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)Reply

I removed

Surely Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has more enemies than just the United States. I felt that the quote was to general to be in this Article. I think if people want to have one of his quotes on this page, they can find one that is specifically talking about the United States.

I am certain they are not hard to find. —This unsigned comment is by Blackoutdaddy (talkcontribs) 22:46, 20 August 2007 (UTC).Reply

I removed a quote from an not copyrighted (not published) story, authored by a no one mind you. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.215.164.147 (talk) 00:06, 22 September 2007 (UTC)Reply

BALANCE NEEDED!!

edit

This DEFINITELY needs balancing! Almost every quote by non-Americans is a negative one. Okay admittedly many people are alienated and intimidated by the aggressive policies of the current administration, but historically over the last 60 years or so there has usually been about a 2/3 approval of the United States in Europe. Even with the current administration there is still about a 1/3 of the population that approves it in Europe. Therefore there must be many more quotes about the United States from famous people over the years that have not been negative. By the way I am NOT American so I have no reason to bias toward a more favourable view. If you check my IP addess it will show that I am from New Zealand (which is actually quite anti-American relative to other western countries) so I have no reason to propagate a favourable view of the United States. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 60.234.157.64 (talk) 09:31, 15 November 2007 (UTC)Reply

Its not just that, why does Michael Moore, get three quotes to, BENJAMIN FRANKLIN'S one, and correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Sylvester Stallone's comment is kept in context, because judging by his movies, I would assume he was a patriot. I've heard the comment before, but I believe he was talking about the modern American media, and not neccessarily the nation as a whole. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.251.74.34 (talk) 05:51, 20 March 2008 (UTC)Reply
Balanced now. – Illegitimate Barrister, 06:31, 6 September 2015 (UTC)Reply

Trimming

edit

So how many quotes are allowed on a country page?(StarWarsFanBoy 20:12, 26 December 2009 (UTC))Reply

Authorship controversy

edit

The quote "America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without civilisation in between" is attributed here to Georges Clemenceau, also attributed to George Bernard Shaw and Oscar Wilde. Elsewhere other famous personalities are mentioned.

However the first similar reference I could find is from 1887, in French, in "revue britannique", where it seems applied to Spain.

Later, it is applied to Russia in The contemporary theatre, from James Agate, in 1926. One can find a close formulation in 1841, also in French and for Russia, in "Histoire des progrès de la civilisation en Europe depuis l'ère Chrétienne jusqu' au XIXe siècle", by Hippolyle Roux-Ferrand, without however the mention of civilisation.

First references to USA seem to appear in 1932, and are attributed to "a witty Frenchman", possibly a journalist. Unfortunately I can't access to the whole publications on google books and I can't see if the precise attribution is given. Two years later some attribute it to John O'Hara.

There is also a book from Charles Du Bus de Warnaffe published in 1924 which is named De la barbarie à la décadence (from barbarism to decadence), but I don't know what it is about. Skippy le Grand Gourou 08:34, 8 August 2010 (UTC)Reply

I'm quite interested to read about this, I have seen the quote attributed to almost every witty intellectual of the past hundred years. It makes sense that it saw repeated use... perhaps attributing to (say) Clemenceau is in the same league as attributing the phrase "Brave new world" to Huxley. 203.217.150.69 00:00, 8 October 2010 (UTC)Reply

Proposed new layout

edit

The Americans/immigrants/non-Americans balance seems awkward and unsuitable to me. Perhaps it would be preferable to divide the sections up by centuries (18th through 21st)? That way it wouldn't seem so random, and we'd have a sense of chronological flow. --Hemlock Martinis (talk) 17:54, 9 May 2012 (UTC)Reply

Yes, I fully agree and endorse this - it would be much better to sort the quotes chronologically. And the addition of subsections by periods of time (similar to what we do with some president's pages where we divide the quotes by year - see George W. Bush or Barack Obama) would be nice. Good idea. ~ UDScott (talk) 18:14, 9 May 2012 (UTC)Reply

Reversion of some EXTREME alteration of layout and content

edit

I just reverted some MAJOR changes made by Y-S.Ko (talk · contributions). I see NO need for a stripping out of comments of US presidents, nor any need for a separate page of segregated quotes "Presidents of the United States on the United States" which was subsequently created. I believe such breakdown into VERY specialized pages is extremely unwarranted. I have also restored MANY of the images that were removed, though I did not restore some that seemed more recently added, and in an order that seemed somewhat unorganized, in my brief glancing at the them. It might perhaps be useful to re-organize the page — but I do not agree on FILTERING it out in quite so extensive, extreme and sudden a manner as was done without ANY discussion of such an EXTREME changing of CONTENT. I believe that the separation of quotes into "Americans" and "non-Americans" should be rejected, and a simple alphabetical listing of the authors of quotes within alphabetized sections should be done, as is done on MANY theme pages. IF such changes as that are agreed to, within the next month or so, I would go ahead and do it sometime next month. ~ Kalki·· 05:17, 23 December 2015 (UTC) + tweaksReply

I have just reviewed the net effect of the edits which were made, and my partial reversions. I would probably restore a few more of the quotes I have not yet restored — but will save such tasks for later, IF an agreement can be determined, along the lines of simply organizing this page into alphabetized sections within the next month or so. ~ Kalki·· 05:25, 23 December 2015 (UTC)Reply
I agree that pulling quotes out based on filters is not a good idea. Instead, I would simply have subsections based on periods of time and sort the quotes chronologically. Yes, the page would be large, but this is a large subject. Arbitrarily creating new pages simply to trim the page makes it harder for people to find quotes if they are looking for them. ~ UDScott (talk) 14:09, 23 December 2015 (UTC)Reply
Good revert, Kalki, and I agree with it. I see no need to remove a quote from one page simply because it is on another, as a quote can be fitting for multiple pages if it fits the topic of discussion. Otherwise, every page here would be a stub.
However, creation of new articles that address more specific aspects of quotes are a good thing and those articles should be kept as long as they are not too tedious and pedantic, but, their quotes should also be kept on the main topic's article as well. On that note, I agree that "Presidents of the U.S. on the U.S." seems way too tediously pedantic and probably should be merged into the regular "U.S. President" article instead.
That said, I have been pondering dividing the U.S. page into more headers, as UDScott just suggested, since the sub-sections are getting pretty big. Whether those headers would be named by alphabetical ordering by author name or by topic, I have not yet decided upon. I feel having subject-derived headers for a huge topic such as a country would be too POV, so I have been leaning towards alphabetical order by author name, since that seems more neutral and objective in my view.
While we're at it, a horizontal table of contents template would probably be a good idea to make. Best regards, – Illegitimate Barrister, 00:18, 24 December 2015 (UTC)Reply
I still believe it would be better to divide the quotes by time period (say by decade or by century) than to divide them alphabetically by speaker. Just as we do with the president pages, I feel that this would better serve the reader to understand quotes about such a large subject as the U.S. ~ UDScott (talk) 13:49, 24 December 2015 (UTC)Reply
I'm not so sure about that. We usually only divide a page's sub-headers into time periods if it's about a person. If it is about other topics, then we usually do alphabetical order by name, since it has multiple quotes from multiple different authors. This might also create problems with categorizing them, as not all of our quotes have exact dates, some are unknown. That also raises the question of which quotes to put into which sections. Do we put a quote from 2015 under the 19th century if it talks about the 19th century? Doing so might also create an imbalance in the content of each section, as quotes will probably be lopsided in favor of a certain time period. Besides, if somebody wants to find quotes from a specific time period, all they have to do is CTRL+F and type in the year they wish to find. Best regards, I.B. – Illegitimate Barrister, 13:09, 25 December 2015 (UTC)Reply

Questionable development of this lemma in the past three years

edit

In the past three years 4000 edits seem to have turned this lemma of quotes into a lemma of abstracts. Just one examples: Three years ago the was one quote by Calvin Coolidge of 19 words, now there 54 quotes of over 7500 words (over 20 pages of text). Is this really what anybody wants? -- Mdd (talk) 12:51, 9 April 2017 (UTC)Reply

At nearly a half million bytes, the present article certainly seems unwieldy to me. It must be a rare visitor who undertakes to read the whole thing, much less accomplishes it. Anyone who does read it all will surely find a bewildering array of diverse and distinct topics lumped together here, each having some bearing upon or relation to the United States but all together being a great mishmash lacking coherent thematic focus.

Observing that we do have some articles that are focused on narrower themes relating to the United States, such as the American Dream, I wonder if it might be better to break most of this, or even all of it, into a set of more particular topics.

At the very least, I think there are numerous broad topics such as Race in the United States, the Second Amendment, and American imperialism, to name a few, that ought not all be heaped together in one ginormous article. ~ Ningauble (talk) 15:43, 9 April 2017 (UTC)Reply

Quotes requiring editorial work

edit

the following quote seems non-notable, and attribution is unclear

the following quote seems marginally relevant if at all to article topic

  • In the U.S., if you are a singer, you're usually a singer for life.

Representation of African American voices

edit

I hope the Wikiquote community will agree that African American voices are underrepresented in the United States article and help to remedy this. I have added several quotations representing these voices and will continue to add more. ~ Peter1c (talk) 16:58, 8 January 2019 (UTC)Reply

Their voices are underrepresented in all Wq-articles.--Risto hot sir (talk) 17:09, 8 January 2019 (UTC)Reply
This has nothing to do with the race of the people saying the quotes. It has to do with the rampant anti-Americanism of the quotes, being almost at the very front of the page. That's POV pushing. --101.176.45.111 06:28, 9 January 2019 (UTC)Reply

I want to reiterate the emphasis on creating an account to properly participate in editorial debates. The inclusion of the images and quotations you propose to remove is supported by at least three experienced editors and no experienced editors have voiced agreement with your intent to remove the images. Having an account permits the community to know the history of an editor's contributions. Your concerns are valid, and they will be taken more seriously if you create an account. The racist history of the United States is an objective historical fact, not an anti-American point of view. Voices that recognize the reality of racism merit emphasis because the history of racism in the United States is an objective fact. ~ Peter1c (talk) 12:50, 9 January 2019 (UTC)Reply

There are 233 African Americans at WQ at the moment while the amount of notable persons is about 20 000. And in Dixie almost all African Americans are sportspeople, musicians or civil rights activists. What's the reason?--Risto hot sir (talk) 15:43, 9 January 2019 (UTC)Reply
  • Eh...it seems pretty non-neutral to start any article on any country with a charged political statement and an image of a protest. I mean, compare:
  • Turkey - National flag with vaguely positive quote from a British MP
  • Germany - National flag with vaguely positive quote from a general and military historian
  • Japan - National flag with vaguely positive aspirational quote from Japanese MP
  • Bosnia and Herzegovina - National flag with vaguely positive quote from a military leader
Then we are going to use an image of a protest and a radical political statement from a convicted felon for this article? I mean, in context, all the above countries have at one point been associated with serious war crimes. The quote on Bosnia and Herzegovina is from an actual convicted war criminal. But it looks like it's fairly common practice across nation articles to start out with a vaguely positive quote and a national flag. GMGtalk 16:04, 9 January 2019 (UTC)Reply
I agree that an image of a protest (even a protest that was essential to a country's founding or restructuring of government, such as the Boston Tea Party or [[w:Arab Spring|Arab Spring), is not a good idea, because it's a vast oversimplification that singles out a single issue for importance that ultimately has less of an impact on large swaths of the population than it does for others, and places far too much emphasis on one particular time period. Why the civil rights period instead of the American civil war, or why not the Occupy Wall Street protests, going along with what Dr. King said in The Radical King, p. 249, "Now our struggle is for genuine equality, which means economic equality. ... What does it profit a man to be able to eat at an integrated lunch counter if he doesn't earn enough money to buy a hamburger and a cup of coffee?"
I've moved up two quotes with greater "endurance factor" from "America the Beautiful" by Katharine Lee Bates, accompanying two less dated images of landscapes, this should be fairly non controversial, it's what I normally do using flowers for movies about war crimes, rape and genocide because I assume it's not just images of genitals that gets Wikiquote filtered, and if you really need to know all the details Wikipedia is a a much better learning resource for history, quotes are nice and all and reveal the opinions of individuals, but historical academia is more about group consensus than individual opinion.
Conversely, I would you to imagine instead of protests, that someone added images of military hardware; both technology and political movements addressing specific grievances, like fashion, can quickly become out of date; notice the Wikipedia page for computers has a wide assortment rather than a random computer from the 1980's that some editor personally preferred because that's what they grew up on.
For someone who denounces racism, this seems an awful lot like "benevolent" racism, (apparently this editor doesn't particularly care as much about Indigenous Americans, despite the country being built on their lands), not to mention willfully ignorant sexism. Women represent slightly more than 50% of the population of countries that don't artificially adjust that number, yet having a suffragette protest would also be inappropriate in my opinion even though women are the statistical majority, women aren't protesting for a vote anymore, they are protesting for safer workplaces and more job opportunities, which I imagine someone who is more outspoken against the value of work than Buckminster Fuller, doesn't particularly think is an important issue, as they would be safe from workplace sexual harassment at home, as others have said in notable publications. I would guess that the strong opposition to flags and other state symbols, (for this one country and seemingly not the others) seems largely based off of an editor's opinion regarding the larger issues of iconoclasm and idolatry, even though flags generally don't have race or gender, which avoids the problem of unequal representation, even if it is more dehumanizing, it is at least equally dehumanizing to everyone. CensoredScribe (talk) 16:25, 15 July 2019 (UTC)Reply

Recent edits

edit

@UDScott: About this edit, you state that this are POV and therefore the article is not balance. The Tatcher, Praguer and other are also POV from the other side of the political spectrum. By remove them now this article is not balanced. Also you re added the quotes of Christopher Shelley who I can't find any evidence of notability. Rupert Loup 21:27, 6 December 2019 (UTC)Reply

To which quotes are you referring? If other quotes on the page (especially those associated with images) show POV pushing, then they should be brought up here and discussed (and them removed if the concern is borne out). And I already re-removed the Shelley quotes - I think you were right regarding notability. ~ UDScott (talk) 21:32, 6 December 2019 (UTC)Reply
How unique is the United States of America. No other nation has been created so swiftly and successfully. No other nation has been built upon an idea; the idea of liberty. No other nation has so successfully combined people of different races and nations within a single culture. ~ Margaret Thatcher
Both the founding fathers of the United States and successive waves of immigrants to your country were determined to create a new identity. Whether in flight from persecution or from poverty, the huddled masses have, with few exceptions, welcomed American values, the American way of life and American opportunities. And America herself has bound them to her with powerful bonds of patriotism and pride. ~ Margaret Thatcher
Most Americans no longer know what America stands for. For them, America has become just another country, a place located between Canada and Mexico. But America was founded to be an idea, not another country. ~ Dennis Prager
The Declaration of Independence, the document that articulated the principle of human rights endowed by the Creator, thereby ultimately ensuring the end of slavery, and led to the establishment of the country that has served as the beacon of hope for people of every race and ethnicity. More black Africans have voluntarily emigrated to the United States to seek liberty and opportunity than came to America as slaves... America gradually became the least-xenophobic, least-racist nation in the world. In no country do people become accepted as full members of the society as do immigrants to America. ~ Dennis Prager

Among others, like by example from Bush and Reagan. Also, there are a lot of quotes with images from the same author. Rupert Loup 21:50, 6 December 2019 (UTC)

Of the quotes mentioned above, I would contend that the Margaret Thatcher ones should certainly remain as they are from a clearly notable person and definitely pertain to the topic of the page. Why would these be removed? The Dennis Prager ones are ones that I could agree might be suspect (and the author seems to lack notability). As for quotes from former presidents like Bush or Reagan, I again would not see the need to remove them. ~ UDScott (talk) 21:55, 6 December 2019 (UTC)Reply
I didn't mentioned notability here, we are talking about POV and balance.

Another one:

Once they see that you don't have to bribe the police here, they're satisfied.
Tamar Jacoby
Rupert Loup 21:59, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
Again, I would agree with the removal of the Jacoby quote above (and maybe place it instead on a page about police or law or justice). But I still don't see how the Thatcher quotes would be subject to removal. I don't see how they would fit the description of POV-pushing quotes. ~ UDScott (talk) 22:01, 6 December 2019 (UTC)Reply
Your rationale to delete the images were that there were POV and affected the balance of the article, I said that there are here to balance the other POV quotes. There can not be double standards in a balanced article. Rupert Loup 22:06, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
Of what double standard are you accusing me? I don't see a double standard and I don't see that the Thatcher quotes push a POV. ~ UDScott (talk) 22:09, 6 December 2019 (UTC)Reply
I'm not accusing you of anything. I'm talking about the article. "Wikiquote has a strict neutral point of view (NPOV) policy, which basically states that its mission is best served not by advancing or detracting particular points of view on any given subject." WQ:NPOV Deleting those quotes and keep and giving prominece to the pro American and conservative quotes fails that policy. Rupert Loup 22:11, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
OK fine. And I agree with keeping a NPOV. Bit I again fail to see where the Thatcher quotes violate that. By your rationale, it appears that any quote that demonstrates a positive feeling by someone on the topic constitutes a violation. If that were the case, and they were removed, I doubt there would be any quotes left. ~ UDScott (talk) 22:22, 6 December 2019 (UTC)Reply
I'm not who is deleting quotes claiming POV here, that one is the IP. Rupert Loup 01:45, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
And just to be clear - it is not the neutrality of the entire article to which I object. It is the placement of POV-pushing quotes with images that in effect highlights them (much as some object to bolding of specific quotes, if it drives a POV). Having the quotes on the page is fine with me (although the notability of some can certainly be questioned) - but emphasizing them above others inherently drives a POV. ~ UDScott (talk) 22:28, 6 December 2019 (UTC)Reply
I'm going to start ordering them alphabetically. Rupert Loup 23:42, 6 December 2019 (UTC)
  • Assuming we're talking about this edit, yes, the grouping of six negative quotes in a row at the top of the page looks pretty POV. Not that this page won't have negative and positive quotes, but to the extent that we have them, we probably shouldn't group six of them together at the top of the page.
On a note about formatting, we really shouldn't group all the images together at the top of the page, but should intersperse them throughout the article. Grouping them at the top like this make it difficult to edit the page, and results in weird formatting problems. Currently this page is nearly useless on mobile view. You get the lead, and then you get 30 some odd images stacking all in a row, and you have to scroll through all of them until you get to the very first quote under the "A" section. GMGtalk 01:46, 7 December 2019 (UTC)Reply
There is no need to remove the quotes to fix that. Rupert Loup 01:49, 7 December 2019 (UTC)
Well, the dispute according to the edit history seems to be about these images stacked at the top of the article. So that's what I commented on. GMGtalk 01:57, 7 December 2019 (UTC)Reply
I moved the images to their corresponding sections, I hope that the formatting issues have been alleviated. At least a little bit. Rupert Loup 02:30, 7 December 2019 (UTC)

I have reviewed the page after recent edits, and I find that the viewpoints represented are predominantly white, male, pro-U.S., pro-colonial, pro-imperial, pro-establishment. We hear far more voices of slaveholders than of slaves. We hear far more voices of colonists than of indigenous people whose land was stolen. We hear far more voices of commanders ordering bombs to be dropped than of people being bombed. In February 2018, I made a series of edits to attempt to remedy some of these discrepancies. In these edits, in addition to adding new material, I arranged the images in such a way that voices that were not given adequate representation in the page were at least displayed prominently at the beginning. These changes were left in place by the community for almost two years and 60,000 views. Now some editors propose a new approach. I suggest that more discussion is required to justify this. I still believe that if the page as a whole gives inadequate weight to voices of victims and opponents of the U. S. regime, then these voices must at least be displayed more prominently. Otherwise the page represents an exercise in glorification of a regime with an avowed white-supremacist, genocidal history. To establish neutrality, more prominence must be given to voices of victims of slavery, genocide, racism and U. S. imperialism. ~ Peter1c (talk) 14:26, 14 December 2019 (UTC)Reply

You make some decent points that are difficult to argue with Peter, but then you make some less persuasive points for added length. "These changes were left in place by the community for almost two years and 60,000 views". Now is that really a good justification, coming from someone who intends to remove some of up my edits after X years and Y number of views? If I used that reasoning I'm sure you would have included a link explaining why page views and length of time an edit has been on Wikiquote don't really mean anything. If you honestly believe those factors are important, why do you not consider them for my edits? CensoredScribe (talk) 15:03, 14 December 2019 (UTC)Reply
CensoredScribe, thank you for your feedback. I agree that the argument "Edits have been left in place for X years and Y views" is not persuasive, particularly as I have not adhered to such a standard in my own edits. This is a good point. I have struck out this argument and leave the others in place. Thanks. ~ Peter1c (talk) 01:56, 15 December 2019 (UTC)Reply
While I have noted my objections above, I believe the only way to avoid such disputes in the future is to adopt a more neutral policy (much like Robert Loup already did on some pages) - that is to order all images alphabetically by their author/speaker. That would also align them with their letter subsection on theme pages where such sorting is in place. This also does not provide any special weight to placement on the page. Again, let me state that I do not have a problem with the quotes themselves, but rather the special placement of them at the top, which was the result of a personal view or choice. Taking that choice out of the equation by sorting things alphabetically would solve this for me. Anyone agree? ~ UDScott (talk) 17:57, 16 December 2019 (UTC)Reply
I agree with much of UDScott's above statement. It has long been my own practice on most pages to try to choose one or two clearly relevant, significant and characteristic quotes of an author, or regarding a theme of a page, paired with an image usually of no great controversy regarding its general relevance to the page, placing them into the upper right corner, and then running the rest of any captioned images along the right side, in the order of their textual placements on the page — thus on theme pages ordering all subsequent images alphabetically by the author/speaker or source of their captioned quote. I believe that in all my many years here, there are very few exceptions to such practices which I have created or overtly accepted — and I have ALWAYS regarded the run of most quotes below the lead one or two in the introductory section, into their order on the page as innately proper, and exceptions to that bothersome in many ways. I have recognized that in recent months and years that there has been a marked increase in people either ignoring or oblivious to such examples, and often placing some of the most clearly and extremely controversial or contentious statements they can in whatever order they wish, often in extensive bundles at the top of pages, and often pushing images with far more general relevance and quotes with less controversial qualities lower on the page, or removing them entirely. I consider this very unfortunate, and against both general Wikiquote and Wikimedia guidelines, but have not had a great deal of time to actively deal with many such incidents in recent months — I might begin to address it more regularly in the months ahead, but I recognize that doing so has often been a very time consuming, contentious process which often detracts from engaging in more generally important activities and issues. So it goes Blessings. ~ ♌︎Kalki·⚓︎ 18:29, 16 December 2019 (UTC) + tweaksReply

The fact that the U. S. regime was founded by genocidal slaveholders is not so much a controversial or contentious statement as a statement that racists are intent on obfuscating. I don't object to ordering images alphabetically, but more voices of women and Native Americans and African Americans and other oppressed people really ought be included. Holding up the words of white supremacist slaveholders without some indication of the type of individuals we are dealing with -- hagiography for genocidal slaveholders -- this is racist history, not a neutral point of view. ~ Peter1c (talk) 00:15, 25 December 2019 (UTC)Reply

I don’t believe anyone who doesn’t have extreme mental or moral deficiencies would declare me a racist intent on obfuscating that racial injustices and bigotries exist, have existed in far worse degrees than they currently do in most nations of the world, and will probably, quite lamentably, continue to exist in the US and other nations for generations yet — but the mental and moral deficiencies of those who would insist that such injustices are what should be emphasized FIRST and FOREMOST about the US are such as I do not wish to extensively elaborate upon. It seems you performed a similar MOVE of a quote such as I was performing, while I was editing, returning the Great Seal of the US as the initial image on the page, where it had existed on the page for years prior to recent months — and followed it by a representation of the US flag and the Statue of Liberty, with a quote regarding the flag: I stated in a summary noted that I was moving "a bit of presumptuously bigoted nonsense: some of the states that existed were apartheid states prior to their Unity — & only through their Unity were they eventually cured of such injustices—though of course various bigotries remain in the US — & in all nations…because humans remain VERY confused about MUCH." Such is a very short summary of the error of placing such a statement FULL of error as Gerald Horne's presumptuous and false statement that "the founders of the republic have been hailed and lionized by left, right, and center for—in effect—creating the first apartheid state." One has to be IGNORANT of MUCH of world history to make such an asinine statement, or promote it. MANY nations have been established as aparthied or caste states since ancient times, and the colonies in which slavery existed prior the unity of the states, while not independent of the UK, were maintaining an abhorrent tradition fully sanctioned by that nation, at that time. ~ ♌︎Kalki·⚓︎ 00:54, 25 December 2019 (UTC)Reply

Interesting discussion. I am OK with latest edits. I do request your help in including more African American voices, women, Native Americans, and other minorities and oppressed voices on Wikiquote. Regarding your claims:

  • All states assented to the fugitive slave clause. All states ratified the constitution that made slavery possible in slave states. All states ate crops grown by slaves. Banks in all states profited from slavery. No state offered to pay back wages from these profits. All states were complicit in slavery.
  • When criticizing professional historians, perhaps a somewhat more respectful tone is called for? Professor Horne has devoting his life to studying history. This doesn't mean he is not wrong. But it certainly means that dismissing his conclusions without examining the full evidence offered and the state of scholarly debates on the subject is inappropriate. I am certainly "ignorant of much of world history" but why claim that a professor of history is ignorant of history? The faculty at the University of Houston decided to appoint Professor Horne to the John J. and Rebecca Moores Chair of History and African American Studies. Were they wrong to do so?

I am grateful for this opportunity to work with you on Wikiquote. ~ Peter1c (talk) 15:48, 25 December 2019 (UTC)Reply

Remix from earth wu x and fire devotion remix BB y as

edit

By a female rapper song is s tru devotion the hustler and the playa

Deceptively edited George Kennan quote

edit

In 1948, George Kennan wrote a secret memo of advice concerning post-War US diplomacy, which you can read in its entirety at WikiSource. One part of the memo is his advice about Asia. Kennan strongly advised against intervening in China's civil war. Truman took Kennan's advice and in 1949 the PRC was successfully established.

From Kennan's advice related to East Asia, a carefully selected portion has been used in several articles to give a false impression. Here's that edited bit, which I just removed.

We have about 50% of the world's wealth but only 6.3% of its population. ... In the face of this situation ... we should dispense with the aspiration to "be liked" or to be regarded as the repository of a high-minded international altruism. We should stop putting ourselves in the position of being our brothers' keeper and refrain from offering moral and ideological advice. We should cease to talk about vague and—for the Far East—unreal objectives such as human rights, the raising of the living standards, and democratization. The day is not far off when we are going to have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are then hampered by idealistic slogans, the better.

Now here's that edited bit with some context restored.

We must be very careful when we speak of exercising "leadership" in Asia. We are deceiving ourselves and others when we pretend to have answers to the problems, which agitate many of these Asiatic peoples. Furthermore,

we have about 50% of the world's wealth but only 6.3 of its population.

This disparity is particularly great as between ourselves and the peoples of Asia. In this situation, we cannot fail to be the object of envy and resentment... All of the Asiatic peoples are faced with the necessity for evolving new forms of life to conform to the impact of modern technology. This process of adaptation will also be long and violent. It is not only possible, but probable, that in the course of this process many peoples will fall, for varying periods, under the influence of Moscow, whose ideology has a greater lure for such peoples, and probably greater reality, than anything we could oppose to it. All this, too, is probably unavoidable; and we could not hope to combat it without the diversion of a far greater portion of our national effort than our people would ever willingly concede to such a purpose.

In the face of this situation

we would be better off to dispense now with a number of the concepts which have underlined our thinking with regard to the Far East.

We should dispense with the aspiration to 'be liked' or to be regarded as the repository of a high-minded international altruism. We should stop putting ourselves in the position of being our brothers' keeper and refrain from offering moral and ideological advice. We should cease to talk about vague — and for the Far East — unreal objectives such as human rights, the raising of the living standards, and democratization. The day is not far off when we are going to have to deal in straight power concepts. The less we are hampered by idealistic slogans, the better.

The real context shows how the little bit taken from it is misleading. Kennan was not suggesting that the US should use its wealth to oppress the rest of the world without thought for morality. He was pointing out that US wealth did not give Truman the ability or the right to try to impose US values on the peoples of East Asia.

To clarify, the quote was deceptively edited to suggest that when Kennan says "In the face of this situation" he refers to America's wealth, something he had mentioned about a paragraph earlier, and suggesting America use it to be a bully. In context, Kennan was saying the opposite. HouseOfChange (talk) 00:23, 28 April 2022 (UTC)Reply

Walt Whitman?

edit

not one quote from Walt Whitman? Please fix. Kingturtle (talk) 02:09, 1 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Thanks for the suggestion! I added some. HouseOfChange (talk) 20:45, 1 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Removed quote

edit

(talk) 22:51, 5 February 2024 (UTC)Reply

Draft

edit

Fugitives from the fascist coup of United States Edits contested by Peter1c

edit

The fascists have invaded and massacred many voices on this page. The rebels have migrated to the talk page while the war for the mind of the United States rages on.

The above unsigned comment and the original out-of-policy section heading are by Peter1c HouseOfChange (talk) 15:27, 2 April 2025 (UTC)Reply

Recent proposal

edit

Image quotes proposed for discussion, a finite proposal

edit

Let me start by agreeing with Peter1c that pompous speechifying by well-off white folks is over-represented in this article and in the image quotes. The remedy for that is not to add pompous speechifying from a different set of well-off white folks. The remedy is to find pithy quotes from a wider range of voices. The image quotes are a special case, where I hope other editors can make this prominent part of the article better. This gallery shows 8 image quotes I think don't improve the article. HouseOfChange (talk) 20:31, 15 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

Hello HouseOfChange. I like your proposal. A few comments:
  1. Look how widely the Gilens and Page study has been cited, and you might change your mind about its importance.
  2. The Sachs and Blum quotes are important because they summarize lifetimes of research succinctly for Wikiquote readers. The Blum book is widely cited both inside and outside academia. Sachs's academic work is widely cited, and here he is stating his conclusions succinctly.
  3. Other cases I am neutral or agree removal is better, so essentially we are 62.5% in agreement, which seems good for us.
I understand your concern about pompous speechifying professors. A lot of my professors are very pompous, but I learned a lot from these pompous asses. I did not try to silence them on account of their pompousness. You seem to be going out of your way to find reasons to delete stuff. Why is there a mania for deleting articles and quotations and reducing the size of the Wikiquote project rather than expanding it? I think it can be helpful if you can put on the table what you want to accomplish so the community can work to address your concerns.
In my experience, concentrating on adding quotations and permitting some entropy in the project makes it both more fun for editors and more interesting to readers. I have learned that my passion for order can easily reduce to enforcing my own point of view. My advice is that adding more arguments and evidence to represent your point of view is both (1) a more constructive and pedagogically helpful way to engage in debates than trying to silence or discredit your opponent and (2) also more fun for everyone involved.
I never took debate class, but I understand the premise is that you have to be prepared to argue the opposite side of the case from the one you agree with, and do it well. I think arguing the opponent's case for them is overkill, but I do think that understanding the opponent's case is always helpful, even if just to refute it. Silencing those with a POV you don't like is impeding research carried on by those on both sides of the debate. Researchers need to have access to opponents' arguments as well as arguments that support their own case.
I understand generating walls of text in response to your actions is a burden on your time and patience, but my understanding is that clear and ample communication is key to resolving disagreements. Thanks for your patience and willingness to discuss. Peter1c (talk) 21:31, 15 March 2025 (UTC)Reply
I don't think any of those 3 are notable/quotable/theme-related enough to be IMAGE quotes. If we keep the 3 quotes you mention as body quotes, we should at least shorten them for a minimum of quotability. e.g. " My whole life has been the United States at war. It's sickening. It's tiring. These wars are disasters. It's just not our business to say, "That one's despicable. That one has to go.'" -- "the U.S. caused the end of life for several million people, and condemned many millions more to a life of agony and despair." -- "economic elites and organized groups representing business interests have substantial independent impacts on U.S. government policy, while average citizens and mass-based interest groups have little or no independent influence." All our quotes are sourced, so readers can easily find more info about each one. HouseOfChange (talk) 22:48, 15 March 2025 (UTC)Reply
Hello HouseOfChange. My method has been to put the shorter quotation in the photo caption and then retain the longer quotation in the body text. You didn't respond to my request for clarification as to what you are trying to achieve by shortening articles and quotations. Have we decided our readership is people with short attention span? Maybe we need a different organization that puts the quotes in order by length, so as to cater to both short and long attention spans? It seems like readers looking for shorter quotes can easily visually search for them in any case. In articles about history and sociology, it seems like longer quotations are probably inevitable to put things in context.

I hope you can explain more about what your objective is, so we can discuss how to meet it rather than shooting in the dark. If you want to remove everything negative about the United States in this article and move it to Criticism of the United States, that is an option that can also be discussed. It had also occurred to me that since Ficaia's version of the article is more visually appealing, it could be put first followed by an alphabetical appendix with laxer requirements. I am just throwing out ideas.

I think it is generally not helping the harmony of the editor community or the quality of the project to remove a lot of material contributed by other editors. It seems like the same issue as with POV. If you think we need more shorter quotes, add more shorter quotes. It seems like you are consumed by a judgemental mania taking an attitude of "unacceptable until proven acceptable" in regard to all material from other editors. I understand there are some bad actors, but most of the content of this article was contributed by experienced editors in good faith.

Can you discuss your motive for the purge so we can work together try to find a way to meet your objectives? I don't think the attention span of Wikiquote readers is as short as you are making it out to be. These are people who made it to the bottom of the Wikipedia article and are looking for more.

You also might want to consider the effect on morale of the community when deletions are frequent and arbitrary. Are editors likely to continue enthusiastically when we see our contributions deleted without any attempt at due process? The community has worked hard to build up what we have. Are you sure that there is no reason to respect that?
Peter1c (talk) 23:28, 15 March 2025 (UTC)Reply
Try to get a grip on reality here. How am I engaging in a "purge"? I have not edited United States since 2024. I responded to the discussion of Ficaia's edits because United States is on my watchlist. And my expression of opinions -- based on my reading of WQ policy and guidelines -- is not "judgmental mania." HouseOfChange (talk) 02:20, 16 March 2025 (UTC)Reply


Postscript: My transparent objective is to share with the Wikiquote community what I am learning in graduate school and in my reading. That was going fine when I was taking German literature and theology classes. But now that I am sharing things more politically relevant, suddenly there is concern about the length of quotes, the number of quotes. My intuition tells me it is all just a smokescreen for anti-intellectualism.
I request that you please be straightforward about your objective. My intuition is telling me that this discussion is futile because your motivations are some kind of political partisanship, and now that we have indicated these motives are not likely to be accepted as legitimate, you will now be using other tactics like quote length that are not really important to you in themselves but merely methods to try to achieve your original political aim. If you want an article that is whitewashed of all criticism of the U. S., please be up front with me about it and we can discuss it openly.
You declared your political goals of sanitizing wikiquote from what you call "anti-US POV" in the archived thread you shared with me. So you have indicated up-front that you have a biased agenda on the topic of this page. How will you edit the page objectively with this biased agenda? How can we move forward on this in a productive way? Perhaps you can persuade the community you have changed your position to a more impartial position (is this possible?) or perhaps you will recuse yourself from editorship on this particular article due to conflict of interest. Peter1c (talk) 00:19, 16 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

Forgive me for saying, your sudden concern about the length of quotes seem disingenuous when you are silent about this:

  • McDonald's (Fuck yeah!) Walmart (Fuck yeah!) The Gap (Fuck yeah!) Baseball (Fuck yeah!) NFL (Fuck yeah!) Rock and roll (Fuck yeah!) The Internet (Fuck yeah!) Slavery (Fuck yeah!) ... Starbucks (Fuck yeah!) Disney World (Fuck yeah!) Porno (Fuck yeah!) Valium (Fuck yeah!) Reeboks (Fuck yeah!) Fake tits (Fuck yeah!) Sushi (Fuck yeah!) Taco Bell (Fuck yeah!) Rodeos (Fuck yeah!) Bed, Bath & Beyond (Fuck yeah, fuck yeah!) Liberty (Fuck yeah!) Wax lips (Fuck yeah!) The Alamo (Fuck yeah!) Band-aids (Fuck yeah!) Las Vegas (Fuck yeah!) Christmas (Fuck yeah!) Immigrants (Fuck yeah!) Popeye (Fuck yeah!) Democrats (Fuck yeah!) Republicans (Fuck yeah, fuck yeah) Sportsmanship... Books...
    • Team America: World Police (2004 film), "America, Fuck Yeah!" (theme song)

If all the administrators are unanimous in supporting your agenda of cleaning up everything negative, critical and disturbing about U. S. history, then I will acquiesce. But that has not been established. It seems like you are silencing voices you disagree with under false pretexts rather than seeking to put your agenda openly before the community to ascertain if we actually support it. Peter1c (talk) 01:17, 16 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

That Team America quote is hilarious and the length is part of what makes it funny. But I don't recall ever having seen it before, so I don't see how I am disingenuous for being silent about it. But shortening many long quotes for "quotability" is something I have often tried.
I don't have an "agenda of cleaning up everything negative, critical and disturbing about U. S. history." Anti-US POV-pushing was part of the diagnostic signature of the LibraryClerk sock farm. Last month, I did cleanup on a different sockfarm, whose diagnostic was pushing promotional quotes about Italy's Lake Como, yet I have no antipathy toward Lake Como. Please AGF and stick to the topic at hand here -- improving this article. HouseOfChange (talk) 02:09, 16 March 2025 (UTC)Reply
Great. So now you have just told me you have not even read Ficaia's version of the article.
Here is one possible interpretation of what is going on. You don't like seeing your bucolic idea of American innocence upset by anything objective, coming either from academia, or from the targets of U. S. imperialism, or from the targets of U. S. slavery and racism.
You are not negotiating in good faith. You suggest eight deletions. I approve five. And now you want to haggle about the other three.
You said the only reason you're concerned about anti-US POV is that it's the diagnostic signature of a certain sock farm. But how does that explain your insistence on deletion of material with anti-US POV that comes from me, a real person who reveals his real identity, and reveals his actual motive: to forward what I'm learning in the university to the community?
This is why I accuse you of being anti-intellectual, a smasher of academic standards. You have completely sacrificed even the aspiration to objectivity, and then you appoint yourself judge over content. If you are this biased about the content, I really suggest to reflect carefully how you can adjudicate objectively.
You are being really disrespectful to the community of editors in deleting all our work and then making us come back and beg for its reinclusion! How did you decide this was an appropriate approach for negotiating a change in the article? It is utterly humiliating to other editors and a betrayal of good faith. You say you support collegiality. How is this barbaric treatment of other editors collegial? It seems in battling the sockbots you have lost all empathy for the human editors among us.
Your position on this is shifting every moment and is so hard for me to understand. As I see it, you are charged with administering the library and you are burning down the library.
Please clarify with precision the goal of your mass deletions and share your plan with the community to obtain buy-in and approval.
Peter1c (talk) 06:18, 16 March 2025 (UTC)Reply
You and I both gave opinions about these 8 image quotes. Opinions from other editors would be welcome. Although I have tried to mend fences and reassure you, your Gish gallop of ad hominem accusations flows uninterrupted. I am sorry for the pain you clearly feel. 20:27, 16 March 2025 (UTC) HouseOfChange (talk) 20:27, 16 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

Thank you for your kind words, HouseOfChange. You have not addressed the fundamental problem with your proposed approach: it does not respect the intentions of other contributors to the article. The mass deletion followed no due process for obtaining consensus. No attempt was made to notify contributors and solicit feedback and discussions on the best way to proceed with the article. This utter lack of respect for other editors is an atrocity in its own right, even setting aside that the mass deletion is trying to conceal other atrocities. Please do not try to evade my questions with your gaslighting techniques. How did you decide the best, most collegial approach for reorganizing an article, the way that is most respectful to the editor community, is to delete all previous contributions summarily with no due process, soliciting no input from prior contributors?
I am calling you out for gaslighting because (1) you are doing something profoundly disrespectful to the Wikiquote editor community by engaging in summary deletions with no due process, and then (2) you are complaining about the obvious anger and frustration caused by your egregious actions and using these emotions to epistemically disqualify the victims' response. Who would not be angry and frustrated to see that you are deleting mass amounts of material, offering no justifications, following no community approved process, seeking no consensus from the community? The gaslighting tactic is to inflict abuse and ridicule to the point where the abused becomes angry, and then use that anger to disqualify the epistemic agency of the abused so they are muted and unable to register any complaint. Fortunately I have studied some psychology and I am familiar with these tactics and can mount some defense.
I know you have better negotiation tactics in your playbook than this. Better negotiation tactics require you be honest about your objectives, which in this case, maybe you are ashamed to admit? Your attitude boils down to, "Nice walls of words, but in the end pointless. I have matches and you have no power to stop me." You are promoting the idea that the alternative to a negotiated agreement is that you are just going to go ahead and delete whatever you want to delete anyway, in contempt of all standards of transparency and community review.
This approach is not going anywhere with me. I have proposed another approach in a separate thread. Peter1c (talk) 12:42, 17 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

This particular thread "Image quotes proposed for discussion" was my effort to get prior input about 8 proposed changes to United States, an article I have not edited since 2024. The Wiki policy for editing, w:WP:BRD, says to make bold edits but if others object then enter discussion to seek consensus. Right now, discussion is ongoing about the large edits, made by Ficaia and not by me, to this article. Your contention that Ficaia should have asked for permission BEFORE making bold edits is counter to policy. HouseOfChange (talk) 12:54, 17 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

The flame of the gaslight flickers as more misleading arguments are deployed to tire, intimidate, and hopefully silence troublesome dissenters once and for all, so they will stop their troublesome attempts to teach lessons of history that deprive murderers of blissful illusions of innocence.
w:WP:BRD is an essay, not a policy document. As another user pointed out to me, perhaps the following documents might be the more relevant Wikipedia policy:

  • Be cautious about making a major change to an article. Prevent edit warring by discussing such edits first on the article's talk page. An edit that one editor thinks is minor or clearly warranted might be seen as major or unwarranted by others. If you choose to be bold, provide the rationale for any change in the edit summary or on the article talk page. If your change is lengthy or complex, consider first creating a new draft on a subpage of your own user page and start a discussion that includes a link to it on the article's talk page.
I see Ficaia created a draft as a subheading of Talk:United States on November 18, 2024 so clearly some effort was made to comply with this policy. I'm not sure why this approach was not continued.
  • Do not be upset if your bold edits get reverted.

You have a valid point about the edits being first made by Ficaia, but then you made this wonderful comment, where you laud Ficaia for his noble attempt to "remove the POV-pushing unquotable stuff with which the LibraryClerk sockfarm larded it". Now, please notice how this admirable obfuscation mechanism works. First we refer to the sock farm, whose diagnostic criterion is "they say things that are critical of the United States". Now to clean up from their perverse influence, we go through and remove everything critical of the United States, without bothering to check if it was added by the sock farm or by a legit editor. You can see how this censorship machine is working. Make dissent the diagnosis of a sockfarm. Now use dissent as the means for screening out the sockfarm's quotations. Now, big win for censorship, we just silenced all dissenters without arousing suspicion.
This article was somewhat of a special case. The infection of dissent from the narrative of U. S. innocence was so serious, the patient could not be saved. In this case, the method is to just remove the entire article and start from scratch.
Silencing the opposing side of the debate is a really, really low tactic. Please repent, cease and desist from this unwise and destructive decision you are making to remove voices that contradict your ill-informed opinions. Peter1c (talk) 15:02, 17 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

Deleting large amounts of material contributed by other editors has a significant impact on this community, not just on the content, but also on the collegial work atmosphere. Whatever methods you are using to adjudicate what stays and what goes in the mass deletions, this needs to be presented clearly to the wider editor community for scrutiny and approval. Are you rating each quote in terms of the quotability factors and getting second and third opinions? I really get the impression you don't have a method at all and are just going through and deleting whatever you don't like.

When WQ doesn't have a site-defined POV or a set of prohibited POVs, what does POV-pushing mean? Can I just label anything I disagree with as POV-pushing?

If we want to have a discussion about a single quote, then we don't need a formal system. If we want to do an objective evaluation of a large number of quotes to adjudicate whether they can stay or go, the evaluation should have a rubric and the rubric should be reviewed and approved by the community. Evaluations can be done by multiple editors to get a more objective opinion. If we start with a fully merged article as I am suggesting, we can assign it to multiple editors for review, to give a rating to each quote in each of the six quotability factors. This way you can get a really good consensus for deletions rather than making them seem arbitrary. I appreciate your intention to improve the project, but there needs to be some transparency in the review process to avoid disharmony in the editor community. It is a big responsibility to judge another editor's work. A publicly available rubric and multiple independent evaluations can make the evaluation process accountable to some kind of standard rather than arbitrary.

Peter1c (talk) 18:28, 17 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

HouseOfChange (talk) 20:17, 15 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

Discussion of settlement approaches

edit

Summary of mass deletions in United States:

  • 1. Lack of due process
  • Over 97% of content deleted
  • No VfD process followed
  • No prior or subsequent attempt to obtain consensus for article reorganization from prior contributors
  • No prior or subsequent attempt to obtain consensus from editor community for removal of material contributed by other editors
  • 2. Transparency about purpose of mass deletions
  • No attempt to review project of mass deletions with wider Wikiquote editor community to obtain consensus
  • Some statements imply mass deletions are intended to enforce uniform POV, contrary to WQ:NPOV.

I think whatever way we choose to move forward should honor the intentions of other editors who have contributed to the article. This implies all deletions of material require due process. Mass deletion of material with no due process is not a good precedent. It seems to me the intentions of prior contributors can best be honored by restoring all quotes that were removed without due process and then processing removals one by one with with due process.
Administratively, the most straightforward way to accomplish this would be something like this:

  1. begin with the currently locked version (alphabetical)
  2. add in all quotes contributed by Ficaia
  3. remove poorly sourced quotes
  4. remove contested quotes with due process by obtaining consensus
  5. decide whether to organize the final article alphabetically or chronologically or in some other way

I hereby volunteer to do 1-3 if there is consensus for this. Peter1c (talk) 11:54, 17 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

  • I'm not sure you're really going to have people lining up to work with you when your approach thus far seems to be posting pages long diatribes full of bad faith assumptions and name calling. GMGtalk 19:38, 17 March 2025 (UTC)Reply
GreenMeansGo the reason for my diatribes is that the mass deletion squad has refused to provide any account of what they are doing, why they are doing it, and to whom they are accountable. Their edits are vandalism, total destruction of content contributed by prior editors with no justification, blank edit summaries or just statements about "POV-pushing", which WQ policy does not permit as a justification for deletions. I am hounding them to try to understand their motives. The first conclusion of my lengthy discussions with HouseOfChange is that the deletion squad does not consider itself accountable to WQ policy documents. When you point out the actual WQ NPOV policy, they do not consider it necessary to show their actions are consistent with it. They are getting away with the deletions, they have the power. They are accountable to no person and no law. Many editors have complained that their deletion activities are arbitrary, intimidating, unilateral, unjustified. Have the mass deletion squad shown that their pattern of activities is supported by the wider WQ editor community? Have they shown it is supported by WQ principles or values? It seems like there is an agenda coming from outside the WQ community that is motivating the deletions. Do we have a right to know what it is? When editors make mass deletions, are they accountable to provide to the community their reasons, or does the community just accept that we will be intimidated by lawless self-appointed cops who feel free to delete whatever they want with no justification, no recourse, no appeal? This is the system they are setting up. Of course my response is going to be confrontational. As an admin, HouseOfChange is supposed to be working for the Wikiquote editor community. So I as a member of that community have a right to hold him accountable to provide justification for his actions. When he refuses, as he still does, to reveal his actual motives and methods, I am going to keep hounding him until he stops ignoring my legitimate questions. These guys are acting like a rogue cops free to arrest whoever they want, and when you bring up the law they shrug and say, "We can do what we want. You have no power to stop us." Is this guy accountable to the community and to other administrators? Or has he staged a coup and now has absolute power that we just have to accept? When I confronted him to point out that the actual WQ:NPOV policy doesn't support his actions, his response was, "Yes, we all get upset when we find something wrong on the internet." What does this imply? That I have no more right to hold him accountable than any random person on the internet, even though I am another editor and member of the WQ community. If WQ values, WQ policy and WQ community don't support the agenda of mass deletions, why are these editors still doing them? Are they accountable to no one but themselves? Peter1c (talk) 10:09, 18 March 2025 (UTC)Reply
You really still don't understand that HoC wasn't the one who removed any content. Collect yourself. I will not read any more 500-1,000 word essays. GMGtalk 12:16, 18 March 2025 (UTC)Reply
I am collected and standing up to demand accountability. The community has a right to know the agenda of the mass deletions. HouseOfChange backed up the racist hatchet job of his fellow demolitionist with kudos so the distinction between members of the gang of book burners is not so significant as you are making it out to be. The longwindedness of the discussions is arising because HouseOfChange continues to evade my demand that he submit a clear account of motives and methods of the mass deletion project to the wider community for scrutiny and discussion. Peter1c (talk) 12:43, 18 March 2025 (UTC)Reply
  • The suggested approach seems well thought out and practical. I support it as a reasonable and efficient way to refine the article while maintaining its integrity. By starting with the locked version, incorporating contributions thoughtfully, and ensuring proper sourcing and consensus, this method should lead to a more polished and organized final article. I'm confident this process will result in a better article overall. Thank you for volunteering to take on steps 1-3—your effort is appreciated! The default organization is alphabetical, and I believe it should be maintained as such. Alphabetical order provides clarity and ease of navigation for readers, which is particularly valuable in a broad and general article like this one. It ensures a neutral and universally accessible structure without imposing a timeline which would be a nightmare to maintain. Keeping it alphabetical is the simplest and most effective choice. -- (talk) 01:24, 18 March 2025 (UTC)Reply
  • At the moment, only administrators can edit the article. Items 1 - 3 look straightforward. As for 4, the "due process" for making edits to Wikiquote or Wikipedia involves reversion and discussion AFTER a controversial edit, not asking for permission before making edits. HouseOfChange (talk) 03:25, 18 March 2025 (UTC)Reply
    the "due process" for making edits to Wikiquote or Wikipedia involves reversion and discussion AFTER a controversial edit, not asking for permission before making edits.
    From another WQ editor via E-mail:
    Ficaia was often reverted, but following this, Ficaia has often engaged in edit warring and reverting again and again to the version with his mass deletions, while not really discussing the quotes individually, just blanket excuses
    And since Ficaia was repeatedly told to stop the page blanking by several people he should have stopped this.
    Essentially you are asserting that you are free to act unilaterally without justifying your actions to the community, and this is OK because there is an appeal process. But where is this alleged appeal process? What I am hearing (and feeling myself) is that editors are extremely intimidated by the god-complex editors who feel they have a right to delete material without any clear justification referencing WQ policies, community consensus, or shared values. There is no message about an appeal process we are receiving along with the mass deletions of our good faith contributions.
    When I notice there is a consistent pattern of violations of WQ:NPOV in the mass deletions, and no real due process beforehand or afterward, I feel there is a need to contest the process as a whole.
    Essentially, your position seems to be that quotes can be removed en masse with no justification, but any contestation of the removals must be made on an individual one by one basis. The WQ community is not accepting this obviously prejudicial approach. We can contest the pattern of mass deletions in the first place rather than arguing about restoring quotes one by one.
    Peter1c (talk) 13:12, 18 March 2025 (UTC)Reply
    You are mistaken in conflating the 2022 LibraryClerk incident with 1) Ficaia's 2025 attempt to improve articles by removing material he considers unquotable and 2) my description of a single Jeffrey Sachs quote as "unquotable." There is no secret program of mass deletions, but there is a consistent need in any wiki for ongoing quality control, painful as it may be to see the value of your favorites questioned. HouseOfChange (talk) 17:31, 18 March 2025 (UTC)Reply
    Hello again HouseOfChange. You are certainly right that I am conflating Ficaia's editing patterns with yours. I appreciate that you are straightening out the record on that and I apologize for the time wasted in doing so. I understand that it is necessary to give the assumption of good faith in cases of disagreement, and your intervention was an attempt to restore this where Ficaia felt it was lacking. However: the assumption of good faith does not preclude edits from being reviewed and contested by other editors.

    Regarding the pain of seeing the value of my favorites questioned: there is no pain in having my favorites questioned. What is painful is that they are not being questioned at all, and in fact are being subjected to the firing squad without any questioning. When the entire article was deleted at once, this is a real stretch to call this "questioning".

    The adjudication of which quotes are deleted is made by the editor doing the deletion, who thereby acts as prosecutor, judge, jury and executioner all at once. What I am trying to point out is that this process is a recipe for bias, and has in fact introduced a very severe bias, as I have clearly documented. If editors are going to continue to make mass deletions, it seems very important for other editors to review them. Peter1c (talk) 16:40, 19 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

Discussion of objective methods for adjudicating quotability with reference to actual WQ policy and precedent

edit

This is intended to be a more productive contribution. What if a rubric like this were filled out for each quotation by multiple editors to produce a more objective assessment of the value of quotations to wikiquote? This is an example of an approach that can potentially help produce consensus for quote deletions that now appear arbitrary, and restore transparency, accountability and harmony to the community. Rubrics like this are often used in academic and employee evaluations as well as other contexts. Peter1c (talk) 16:54, 18 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

A quote's "originality" refers to its "quality of being novel or unusual." Quotes that lack both "eloquence" and "originality" don't belong in WQ, no matter how many other points they satisfy in your proposed rubric. HouseOfChange (talk) 17:40, 18 March 2025 (UTC)Reply
In the entire history of Wikiquote, the quotability policy has never been enforced under the interpretation you describe. Now you propose to enforce the policy selectively, only for quotes that disagree with your political view. Or perhaps you will apply it unselectively, and delete 2/3rds of the Wikiquote archive? In either case, you will not be able to get away with your coup without resistance. In the whopping three years this überexperienced editor has been on WQ, they have made more deletions than contributions. Now they are here to dictate their interpretation of our policies to our community. Peter1c (talk) 13:59, 19 March 2025 (UTC)Reply
Here is an example of the level of transparency we are dealing with. Removing quotes from Noam Chomsky and other important figures, this editor designates the material as "unquotable blather". The actual motivation for the deletions obviously has nothing whatsoever to do with their quotability. There is not even the faintest glimmer of desire for honesty, objectivity, transparency or accountability. Anything I disagree with is unquotable blather. "Blah, blah blah" is all I hear when anyone who disagrees with me is speaking. I am well trained to refuse to listen to anything I disagree with. Most other people are too. But just to be safe, I want to make sure no one else gets a chance to see this offensive text that dares to disagree with me. This what we are dealing with. This is why we need a way to make these kinds of deletion agendas fully transparent and accountable to the community. Peter1c (talk) 15:06, 19 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

I have reviewed WQ:QUOT again, and I do not find any evidence that any of the quotability factors other than having a quality source can override all other factors and render a quote unquotable. In fact, WQ:QUOT states:

  • There is no absolute test for the inclusion of either a page or a specific quote. However, there are a number of factors to be weighed in determining whether either deserves a place in this compendium.

A possible counterargument could be that since the quotability factors are called "factors" they should be multiplied rather than added, so that a zero in any category would give a zero result. This doesn't seem like a strong argument, however, since the term "factor" is used in a much broader sense to mean a contributing aspect, not limited to a multiplicative operation.

It seems like all of the six quotability factors can be documented with a detailed analysis. None is predominantly subjective except perhaps for #5, but even then we could bring in textual analysis methods from the humanities to try to be more objective about wittiness and poignancy. Also the good faith assumption requires giving the editor who added the quote the benefit of the doubt, particularly if it is a very experienced editor.

Are there any objections to the request for some kind of analysis that at least appears objective to justify the removal of quotes to the community, or is the disagreement only in the details?

I don't mean to suggest or imply that we have to do this kind of detailed analysis for quotes that are obvious deletion candidates unlikely to produce any serious disagreement. But clearly we need some kind of framework for efficiently adjudicating cases in which disagreement occurs. The idea is not to make more work for editors, but rather to make less work by having a framework pre-prepared that can streamline the discussion in contentious cases. Peter1c (talk) 19:36, 19 March 2025 (UTC)Reply

Proposed rubric for review and adjudication of quotes

edit
Proposed rubric for review and adjudication of quotes
factor criterion 0 1 2 3 score
1. sourcing Quotation needs reliable, well-reputed source. unsourced
web blogs
amazon reviews
hearsay, etc.
(reject irrespective of other scores)
minor commercial media
commercial books
obscure academic journal
major commercial media
bestseller commercial books
minor academic press
classical or canonical text
well reputed major academic press or journal
Official government source, etc.
2. originality If quotation cites another authority, better to track down original source. secondhand cheap paraphrase explanation adds something entirely original
3. notable topic For theme articles, notability of topic is in context of article theme negligible probability of shared interest could be interesting to someone with specialized interests could be interesting to anyone important and relevant to everyone
4. notable author Why is this person's view worth considering? no authority authority in specialized area, celebrity political authority, public figure, well known scientist or academic recognized authority on article topic
5. eloquence Is the quote witty, pithy, wise, eloquent, or poignant? philistine tedious interesting but get to the point witty, pithy, wise, eloquent, and poignant
6. widely quoted Can often be ascertained by google, google books, google scholar not widely quoted nor should it be has potential for quotability but no proof it's widely quoted yet significant search results canonical quotation identified with author or field
TOTAL
Return to "United States" page.