CensoredScribe

First Officer Spock: Our reply, also as recommended, is, sir, we have noted in your recent behaviour certain items, which, on the surface, seem unusual. We respectfully ask permission to inquire further. ~ Art Wallace, Star Trek, "Obsession", (15 Dec, 1967)

I have never heard of any youngster going wrong, turning to crime, because of the movies. It simply isn't possible. Our relation to crime is, in a sense, the same as the prison warden's. We don't create it. We deal with it after it has happened, and we always make the criminal look bad. ~ Humphrey Bogart “Censorship: Jimmy Walker Never Heard of a Book Seducing a Dame but Bluenoses are Still on the Trail of our Films”, Hollywood Reporter, (Oct 1941); republished in “When Humphrey Bogart Tackled Movie Censorship in 1941”, Hollywood Reporter, (2/27/2018).

• 2015-2016
• 2017-2018

Why are you still wasting time with vacuous material that is meant to entertain and distract rather than educate and enlighten?

CensoredScribe, why are you still wasting your time with vacuous material that is meant to entertain and distract rather than educate and enlighten? It is obvious that you are very intelligent and are capable of great intellectual discipline. Why are not exerting some discipline in your choice of material, and allowing the random machinations of the market to select for you? Reading lists for masters and PhD programs of many universities are available online (example). Why are you distributing your attention to sources unworthy of attention? I really don't get it. Your mind only comes into this world only once and you get only one chance to do something worthwhile with it. There is no time to waste.

• Whoever destroys a soul, it is considered as if he destroyed an entire world. And whoever saves a life, it is considered as if he saved an entire world.
  • Mishnah Sanhedrin 4:9; Yerushalmi Talmud, Tractate Sanhedrin 37a.

You are destroying your mind (and soul) by feeding it material that is unwholesome, not beneficial to its growth. By the logic of the Mishnah, then, you are destroying an entire world. ~ Peter1c (talk) 18:13, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

• I appreciate the compliment and the concern, I am in no rush to create another about section or to add an extensive amount of quotes to theme pages from cartoons or comics like I did when I first started editing; the particularly soap boxy inspirational quotes from comics all seem to be about the same basic subjects: strength, courage, teamwork, friendship, etc., though I don’t see them of being of a drastically worse quality than the numerous inspirational quotes from professional athletes. I have only watched one new movie in the last 9 months for wikiquote and no TV shows, and I’m already feeling tired of fiction just from looking up information about things I've already seen. I don’t tend to spend as much time creating about sections for TV shows on account of they rarely go into as much detail in interviews and reviews, I haven’t completed that many of them, and there’s often a language barrier with video games and anime. I am starting to get tired of reading film reviews and interviews for violent action and horror movies as well as depressing historical dramas with slightly more educational value to them due to the research that goes into making them appear more historically accurate. Adding reviews for CGI animal movies is of no interest because I’ve not actually seen many of those either and I don’t like reading reviews to things I’ve not seen, the interviews however tend not to reveal much of the plot as they are often done to promote the film and there’s often a wider array of topics, like animation, film or acting.
  Honestly between the brief amount of time I spent on the pages for WWI, 9/11, terrorism, and nuclear weapons I’m ready to think about something more pleasant for a while, even the psychology journals I want to read before the end of the year are just a tad dour and those are designed to help people. I might eventually add something from a longer non fiction work though at the moment I intend to add quotes from journals and some more religious figures before I seriously consider retiring from this pursuit and just reading without the intent of looking for things Wikiquote is lacking, it’s been a while since I’ve done that. Most of the great classics of literature already have pretty decent coverage on Wikiquote, though there’s plenty of books written by literary theorists analyzing them from different perspectives that could be added to about sections. I am definitely interested in adding quotes of greater educational value than I have recently, though I think understanding why a film is bad or good is important, I regret not adding more reviews from Crosswalk and other religious film reviewers as they are just as widely read as the other entertainment websites, (though I wouldn't necessarily say the major newspapers), and showing them side by side with more secular reviews demonstrates that there are more similarities between the reviews than there are differences for the most part. Roger Ebert thought rather highly of studio biblical epics written with the approval of religious groups, as was the custom during the Hays Code. Sometimes though they disagree in ways you would not expect, such as with the violence in The Passion of the Christ which seems to have been protested more by secular sources than by Christians, many seeing it as just your typical violent Hollywood horror movie passing under the radar because it is excused as a passion play; whether or not this would have been the reaction to a crucifixion scene with similar levels of blood is questionable and hard to prove given the general lack of films featuring scenes like that. I read an article from the British Film Institute titled, War is Hell, but how much can you show? detailing film censorship in the U.K. during the second world war, I have not reviewed the official stance of churches on the televised images of atrocities that took place during the Vietnam War and whether the news was ever protested the way one might a violent film showing these horrifying things happening.
  Not to digress to much, but what I find strange about religious protests of violent entertainment is that professional sports has been given the pass, seemingly no major religious organization has made a serious effort in modern times to oppose professional sports citing it being a glorification of violence, an unnecessary risk to human life, resulting in numerous preventable serious injuries or being a colossal waste of time and resources that could go to the poor. I could speculate as to why no church wants to pick a fight with a bunch of professional athletes beloved by the local community and the many businesses that support both the local sports teams and the local churches, who would hate to pick sides and divide the cornerstones of patriarchal culture. Why do religious critics not normally protest cheerleaders for not wearing enough clothes the way they did with Wonder Woman in the 40's? Does that mean her attire is now officially acceptable and the previous condemnations were incorrect given the current stance on cheerleaders seems to be they are dressed perfectly fine? I’d be much more interested in an actual quotation that could be added explaining the near universal approval of organized sports by religion. The biggest religious opposition seems to be that throwing a pig skin football is not kosher, and Jehovah's Witnesses generally dislike all organizations above a certain size, which is hardly a call for a football prohibition. I agree that most of what has been described in this discussion is just bread and circuses but with a television screen and high fructose corn syrup. CensoredScribe (talk) 05:45, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi CensoredScribe. Thank you for your reply. I really like what you wrote. I'm really glad to hear I'm not the only one who has noticed religious leaders are giving a pass to spectator sports. In a theology class at UC, the professor began each class by chatting about football with other students. One day I got fed up and stood up and demanded that we discuss whether football was idolatrous. He laughed. But I had a good discussion with some other students after class. Spectator sports are a key part of the propaganda system that gets young people to worship the beast. The reason for the failure of courage on the part of religious leaders to take on spectator sports might be a desire not to set themselves in opposition to popular athletes, as you say, but it could also be something more sinister. Organized religion is, after all, funded by the beast of global capital. Spectator sports, as you rightly point out, are a colossal waste of resources that might have fed the poor and housed the homeless. But the mansions and tropical vacations of the owner class are also a colossal waste. Religion that preaches against conspicuous consumption is not in vogue, perhaps precisely because the owner class doesn't want to be called out on their inhumanity, and therefore funds religious leaders who give them a pass on their cruel indifference to the poor.

Regarding your concern that some works are already adequately covered on Wikiquote, I definitely wouldn't let that dissuade you from compiling quotes from them. In many cases there are Wikiquote pages for the authors, but not for individual books. You can also add quotes to theme pages as you find them. The quotes earlier editors picked out aren't necessarily the best ones. Before I learned about Wikiquote, I collected quotations in a document on my hard drive. Collecting quotations is a good practice in any case, because it gives you a written record of what you learned from a book. Not sure if you saw this quote before:

• Just about anyone with intellectual ambition in the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries was likely to keep a commonplace book. In its most customary form, “commonplacing,” as it was called, involved transcribing interesting or inspirational passages from one’s reading, assembling a personalized encyclopedia of quotations. ... The great minds of the period—Milton, Bacon, Locke—were zealous believers in the memory-enhancing powers of the commonplace book. There is a distinct self-help quality to the early descriptions of commonplacing’s virtues: in the words of one advocate, maintaining the books enabled one to “lay up a fund of knowledge, from which we may at all times select what is useful in the several pursuits of life.”
  • Steven Berlin Johnson, "The Glass Box and the Commonplace Book," Hearst New Media lecture, April 22, 2010

I agree with you that understanding why film and fiction is bad or good is important. But part of that judgment is in the intention of the genre. Entertainment can be good or bad in some respects, but in one respect it's unworthy of attention no matter what, because it's intention is to entertain rather than enlighten, to make money for producers rather than help the moral and intellectual development of the audience. Film and fiction may produce enlightenment and development, but only secondarily.

• Do you realize the sort of danger to which you are going to expose your soul? If it were a case of putting your body into the hands of someone and risking the treatment’s turning out beneficial or the reverse, you would ponder deeply whether to entrust it to him or not, and would spend many days over the question, calling in the counsel of your friends and relations. But when it comes to something which you value more highly than your body, namely your soul—something on whose beneficial or harmful treatment your whole welfare depends—you have not consulted either your father or your brother or any of us who are your friends on the question of whether or not to entrust your soul to the stranger.
  • Plato, Protagoras 313a, W. K. C. Guthrie, trans. (Collected Dialogues, p. 312)

• Knowledge is the food of the soul; and we must take care, my friend, that the Sophist does not deceive us when he praises what he sells, like the dealers wholesale or retail who sell the food of the body; for they praise indiscriminately all their goods, without knowing what are really beneficial or hurtful. Neither do their customers know … unless he who buys of them happens to be a physician of the soul.
  • Plato, Protagoras 313c, Benjamin Jowett, trans.

So if we take Socrates' word, the best texts to read are texts that are meticulous in justifying their claim to be beneficial to the soul, and ruthlessly critical of both other texts and themselves. A good text, in this line of thinking, would constantly raise objections as to why it is or is not beneficial, and analyze the objections meticulously. I couldn't find a specific quote to support this, but another viewpoint would be Walter Benjamin's "On the concept of criticism in German romanticism," where he sees good critical texts as texts that develop and refine centers of self-aware reflection that can give insight into the hidden assumptions that lie behind the text itself, and behind other canonical texts. Benjamin thinks good criticism helps to find the hidden assumptions of texts in the way Marx, Adorno, Marcuse, Horkheimer, etc. help find the hidden assumptions of capitalist society. In the Buddhist tradition, thinkers like Nyanaponika and Mahasi Sayadaw teach readers how to cultivate a state of "bare attention" in which consciousness becomes aware of itself. Here the focus is more on awareness of the present state of consciousness, and less on the history of how consciousness came to have the assumptions it is. Anyway, this is just me rambling about academic stuff. The main thing is that i really like what you wrote. ~ Peter1c (talk) 17:30, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

You are aware that Plato is often accused of being a eugenicist who based off the views he expresses in The Republic seems to have believed in forced marriages as part of a rigged love lottery, and that he endorsed the telling of "noble lies"; also his choice of metal based metaphors could easily be criticized from a biblical perspective as being derivative of Lamch and Tubal Cain's Nimrod like obsession with metal as the supreme material? Granted Plato did take into account that a union of two golds could result in a bronze, (I'm not sure if he is referring to random genetic mutation or some form of meritocratic social mobility that would allow a transfusion of new blood into the homogeneous gene pool).
Have you heard of Archeanassa and the other Hetaerai that the ancient Greek philosophers were in love with? You've yet to recommend I read the writings of any women, Archeanassa's page is a rather short read, perhaps you could change that and add the appropriate ancient Greek texts.
Also, those football stadiums could easily be converted into tent cities for the homeless, which presumably as private property enclosed by walls, unlike parks, people would not accidentally wander into, and unlike the wilderness, could be easily placed under video surveillance should any security minded detractors insist that be needed to prevent the homeless from doing whatever it is the wealthier are afraid they will do when grouped together. I don't think they actually store anything of value in those stadiums anyways, and if they do, all it would take is extra security guards like they have for warehouses. Most of the infrastructure already exists to implement this, meaning it's a relatively cheap modification compared to building affordable permanent housing.
Just saying... CensoredScribe (talk) 05:33, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Yes, 100 million Americans [sic] are indeed morons (Restored)

• Can it be that 100,000,000 Americans [sic] are morons? Possibly so; but there seems to be a simpler explanation. Nine humans out of ten react first with their feelings rather than with their minds; the more primitive the emotion stimulated, the stronger the reaction. Comics play a trite but lusty tune on the C natural keys of human nature. They rouse the most primitive, but also the most powerful, reverberations in the noisy cranial sound-box of consciousness, drowning out more subtle symphonies. Comics scorn finesse, thereby incurring the wrath of linguistic adepts.
  • William Moulton Marston

Thanks for adding this quote. Marston calls his second explanation a "simpler explanation" but isn't it really in fact the same explanation? Doesn't part of being a moron consist in an inability to appreciate anything but trite lusty tunes in the C natural key of human nature? The millions of morons take their cue from the other morons, thinking "100 million people can't be wrong. The majority is always right." Thus they allow themselves to sink down into the common level of idiocy. They listen only to the lusty tunes in the C natural key of human nature, and fail to develop any higher sensibilities by which they might be able to improve their tastes. Marston concedes that the primitive reverberations drown out the subtler sensibilities. Why allow your subtler sensibilities to be drowned out? You have a choice whether to follow the 100 million idiots in their idiocy or improve your mind. Why do you choose to follow the idiots? Your replies always cite a lots of specific cases, but I discern no coherent argument behind the slew of examples. What is the principle behind this choice, which seems to me like deliberate ruination of the mind, deliberate forsaking of the one and only chance you get to improve your mind and raise it out of the miasma of mediocrity? ~ Peter1c (talk) 16:05, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Ah yes, hello again Peter, I'm a tad bit confused what prompted this brief and vague criticism at this time, and what exactly your topic sentence is. Perhaps you feel Jack Kirby isn't a page worth improving, or even having, or that he is, but Darkseid, (his way of expressing the horrors he had witnessed throughout his life), isn't, perhaps you are saying neither should have images or a page, which of these is it? I assume you've heard of art therapy, correct, one of many treatment methods popularized by Dr. Lauretta Bender; clearly it was his job to be an artist, but the principle is still similar.
Despite not specifically saying so, I'm guessing this is about adding images to the pages for comics, correct, rather than adding images to other pages, or is there a theme page you object to having images on as well? In the last week or so I've added images to the page for Swamp Thing, are you claiming Alan Moore does not write literature? What about Jerusalem, and is not Watchmen, (or Maus, which I'm guessing you don't consider worthy of having a page for either), often the only graphic novel included in top 100 literature lists? I suppose I also added links to the page for Superman, including a quote from Superman: Birthright, which was selected as quote of the day: perhaps than we should discuss this issue with Kalki given it concerns the quote of the day? This seems more like a criticism meant for the village pump, seeing as I added those Swamp Thing quotes years ago and you are just now getting around to objecting to them, I feel as if this is something you've wanted to discuss with the community as a whole for a while now, but haven't, despite clearly having the eloquence of speech to do. Why limit yourself to my talk page? There's a much larger audience out there at the pump! Are you afraid no one else will chime in and we'll both realize how little any one else cares to listen to either of us cranky wind bags? I kind of am.
The only actual comic book quote I've really added, for months now, is from The Boondocks, what is it about Mr. Aaron McGruder or his award winning work that you find so "primitive" and of lower sensibilities? Why not remove the rest of the Boondocks quotes, there's several and you've clearly noticed them. Similarly you left the Blade Runner quote on the page for help for some reason, I assume you will be making these changes.
As far as the use of visuals go, to quote Ekman and Friesen, "At best, it is not easy to describe facial expression. Pictures are needed, because it is a visual phenomenon.", the use of visuals is one area where scientific literature differs from "literature", if you are concerned I haven't read enough "literature", I ask you to explain why scientific literature does not count for "improve my mind", if you would like to discuss the appropriateness of quoting science journals why don't you just say it, other than you know how ignorant that would make you sound. Would you like to tell me how many non-notable, non-quotable, unenduring science journals I've quoted now, or should we wait until I've added another couple hundred? CensoredScribe (talk) 19:00, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

• Are you aware of the danger which you are incurring ? If you were going to commit your body to some one, who might do good or harm to it, would you not carefully consider and ask the opinion of your friends and kindred, and deliberate many days as to whether you should give him the care of your body ? But when the soul is in question, which you hold to be of far more value than the body, and upon the good or evil of which depends the well-being of your all, — about this never consulted ... with any one of us who are your companions. But no sooner does this [widely marketed production] appear, than you instantly commit your soul to [its] keeping.

• Socrates

Thanks for your reply, CensoredScribe. Once again, you cite a lot of specific cases, but really there's no answer to the question: why do you allow your mind to be sucked down into the miasma, mara, Babylon, etc. rather than reserving your mind for inputs that are truly worthy of it in their dignity, in their aims? If the aim of a text, film, comic, etc. is to entertain, amuse, titillate, excite and do whatever necessary to sell, why is it in your interest to consume this text? I keep asking the question, because I am sincerely interested in understanding your position, not to be annoying. I hear your sarcasm (reaction to the annoying aspect, for which I apologize) but I don't hear your answer to the question. It's important to me on a personal level, because I feel you are being misled from the path to intellectual improvement by the marketing of Hollywood. It's also important because you are a leader in this community, and the cultural choices you make affect others. If all the energy that went into analyzing Hollywood films were instead directed to texts whose intention is to improve your mind, what would be the result? Questions about "What is canonical?" "What is worthy of attention?" are key questions. There is a lot of good debate on this topic. If you let the marketing apparatus of Hollywood decide for you, what makes you think this is the best choice? Whoever has the most money to invest in advertising a lucrative film, that will be your "canon." Is this the right principle to use to decide what is and is not canonical? Earlier message is intended as a criticism of Marston's quote specifically, certainly not of you or your contributions, except insofar as you are allowing yourself to be misled by the marketing arm of Mara/Babylon. As far as audience, no need to worry about that. I have a good memory and if we have a good debate I will remember what I learn from it and use it in venues with bigger audience. As far as scientific literature, that is certainly better. But scientists are after publishable results, not insight. They are valuable for answering specific questions, but their aims are still not worthy enough to merit a primary place in the canon. The principle of canonicity I'm recommending is that the text seeks to help you improve your mind. Scientific texts are only helpful if the question your mind is asking at that moment, the information it needs at that moment, corresponds to the question they are asking. Otherwise I would say it's better to concentrate on texts that explicitly aim to help you improve your mind, not just answer specific narrowly defined questions. Thanks again for the discussion. ~ Peter1c (talk) 20:25, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

The land holdings and other financial assets of most of the religions you quote, are smaller than that of the Hollywood companies you accuse of being Babylon, a nation. Also, the devil/Hollywood didn't make you do it, unless you want to admit you believe you don't believe you have a choice in life, that sounds like a lot of clerical predestination and not very responsible, which is odd from someone kvetching about my supposed leadership. That was an insightful response, however, it also unfortunately didn't answer any of the questions I asked, you are aware of that and how rude it is, correct? I'll limit it to just one question I'd like you clarify: what is your opinion on the page for Jack Kirby, and please be specific, don't just speak in generalities about corporate control over art as a way of avoiding having to use any names: there's no need to speak in riddles.
As a side note, mind telling us all what specific religious texts to read and which to avoid? You use literature lists, but those generally preclude religious texts, so I'm curious why you don't have a specific list for texts that I assume, you believe are even more important than the most "literary" secular works, correct? CensoredScribe (talk) 23:48, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Hi CensoredScribe. Thanks for your reply. I don't intend to be rude. I just don't see the relevance of the questions. The problem is that you keep adding quotations to theme pages that don't meet WQ:Quotability guidelines. Of course when a quote is exceptionally good, editors are going to be flexible. But the standard is going to be high because it goes against the guideline. I don't understand the motivation for the low quality additions. When I and other editors bring up the issue, you sidetrack the discussion with questions that seem irrelevant, or whose relevance is at any rate never explained.

The low quality additions make more work for other editors, who have to remove them. The low quality additions are obviously taking up your time too. What is the point of wasting all this time? I would like to understand your motivation, so maybe we can find a way to reconcile your needs with the needs of the community. If you wanted to make the case for the canonicity of texts, just showing them to the community may not be sufficient (and it isn't working in this case). You would have to make an argument and specifically show how your examples support your argument. I'm open to deductive arguments based on principles, or to empirical arguments. But empirical arguments have to explain how evidence supports the conclusion, not just cite evidence.

Texts that make no claim to be able to improve the mind are unworthy of canonical status. This argument is admittedly very generalized, deductive rather than empirical. But I think there is something to it. Some productions are created to entertain you, to grab your attention for the purpose of selling you stuff. Other productions claim to be able to improve your mind. Productions that claim to be able to improve your mind may make that claim only to sell you stuff. The claim may be false. I hear your point about religious texts being open to this charge. It is definitely true in some cases. But the fact remains that some texts claim to improve your mind. Even if the claim is not true, the claim seems to make the text more worthy of attention than texts that don't even make this claim. You could say texts that don't claim to improve your mind are just being modest, but I don't think this explanation holds up. These texts are not modest about their ability to entertain. The fact that they make no claims that they can educate or enlighten isn't the result of modesty. They just have no such intention. What is the motivation for giving your attention (which is finite) to productions that make no claim that they can improve your mind? Why not use that precious attention to sort through texts that do make this claim and determining which ones really help and which ones don't?

Regarding your request for specific titles, it's hard to tell if you're being sarcastic or not, but I think you might like these:

• Max Horkheimer, Eclipse of Reason and The Frankfurt School on Religion
• Jacques Ellul, Humiliation of the Word
• Nyanaponika Thera, The Heart of Buddhist Meditation
• Leo Strauss, What is Political Philosophy?
• Max Weber, Sociology of Religion and The Protestant Ethic and the Spirit of Capitalism
• Julien Benda, Treason of the Intellectuals
• Simone Weil, Gravity and Grace
• Pali canon: Digha Nikaya, Majjhima Nikaya, etc.
• Diogenes, Sayings and Anecdotes (OUP)
• Zhuangzi, The Book of Chuang Tzu
• John Howard Yoder, Radical Christian Discipleship

I think you are right to stand up to the presumptive authority of other editors. I'm with you in your recalcitrant spirit. The problem is that Hollywood turns the recalcitrant spirit into a weapon to subdue and enslave your spirit. Acquiescence to the titillating desires inflamed by film and comics seems like an act of rebellion. But the rebellion is only enslaving you to sensory pleasure. The true rebellion that frees your mind will come not from acquiescence to the senses and their desires, but from rigid discipline of the senses so that higher parts of the mind can be free. Hope this helps. ~ Peter1c (talk) 17:37, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

An interesting reading list which includes Weber, perhaps if you liked him, you might find Wilhelm Reich worth your time. Though perhaps you'd prefer quoting more Aleister Crowley, why do you quote Crowley? I think most of your local religious figures would agree that despite some doctrinal differences they might have with him, a polite Jewish war veteran like Jack Kirby, who took care not to offend people even when telling them science-fiction monster stories, is probably slightly better for your soul than say a self proclaimed black magician with a long list of horrifying rumors that he seemed to enjoy the circulation of. You can go to Ask a Rabbi or your local confessional for a second opinion on that if you'd like if you don't believe me, asking priests and nuns to produce reading lists isn't a hobby that particularly interests me though.
Also, would you suggest a list of texts/religions to avoid? I'd like to know if you have anything else negative to say about specific religions, other than some might be bad because they are rich or control/are controlled by more corporations. For example, (seeing as you've deleted it before), what do you think about what Stephen Fry has said about Catholicism? CensoredScribe (talk) 20:05, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Hi CensoredScribe. Thanks for your reply. I wrote something about false religion for you. I suspect you won't like it because it remains on the level of generalities, and I know you prefer specifics. I'll think more about this and we can discuss more later if you want.

• The excellent man is he who condemns what he finds in his mind without previous effort, and only accepts as worthy of him what is still far above him and what requires a further effort in order to be reached.
  • José Ortega y Gasset

False religion teaches the mind to be satisfied with itself in its present state. True religion teaches the mind to seek to improve itself. False religion teaches the mind to be satisfied with what pleases the mind in its present state. True religion teaches the mind to seek out what requires renewed effort and discipline to appreciate. False religion teaches us to look for our values and ideas from the present age. True religion teaches us to transform ourselves by the renewing of our minds.

New religions often define themselves in opposition to a clerical hierarchy, attempting to revive interest in foundational principles that have been obscured by priestly bureaucracy. In time, a new priestly bureaucracy emerges, and, unfortunately, the religion becomes similar to what it began by preaching against. This is what Weber calls "routinization of charisma." The charisma of early religious leaders comes from their fervent attachment to principles, values and ideals. But as the religion is reproduced over time, this original charisma fades away and in its place emerges a trite ceremonial routine. The principles, values and ideals are still discussed, but the original devotion that motivated the founder is absent, and what takes its place is mechanical routine.

Another issue is that when religions attract the loyalty of a large number of adherents, they attract the attention of powerful figures, who then try to use the religion to enhance their power. The most famous case of this is probably Constantine, but there are many others. Religion that begins by defining itself in opposition to the values and ideals of imperial culture becomes the state religion of an empire.

Hope this helps. I read my original post again and I see it was over the top. Sorry about that. I was trying to provoke an interesting debate, not make you mad. Thanks again for the discussion. ~ Peter1c (talk) 19:36, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

Regarding ellipses at beginning of quotation

Regarding ellipses at the beginning of a quotation, The Chicago Manual of Style has this to say:

• Ellipsis points are normally not used (1) before the first word of a quotation, even if the beginning of the original sentence has been omitted; or (2) after the last word of the quotation, even if the end of the original sentence has been omitted, unless the sentence as quoted is deliberately incomplete.

• The Chicago Manual of Style p. 638

Hope this helps. ~ Peter1c (talk) 19:36, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

What is motive for adding quotations that are obviously off-topic and mention the article topic only incidentally to theme pages?

Censoredscribe, I really don't understand motive for additions to Catholic Church that obviously have far more to do with feet and uniforms and mention the Catholic Church only incidentally. This is part of a larger pattern of adding quotations that are obviously off-topic and mention the article topic only incidentally. With all due respect, it is hard for me to understand the motive. How does adding these off-topic quotations help readers who come to the article looking for information on the article topic? How does it help you? Can you please explain what you are doing to the other editors so we can figure out what is going on? ~ Peter1c (talk) 19:58, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Please see the topic about religious dress code quotes on the village pump, which is where I will be discussing this issue and any other specific topics you would like to know the community's opinions on regarding specific linkable edits. If you would also like to discuss me as an editor and how the community views this, the administrator's notice board would be the correct location. CensoredScribe (talk) 21:55, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

CensoredScribe, I have said before I think you are a thoughtful editor and a very intelligent thinker. My disagreement is not with your skill or talent but with the criteria you use for choosing research topics. Some people say you have to start with what strikes your particular interest at the moment and work your way to things of more universal interest, but in my experience this just isn't true. When I was assigned books for class that were outside my realm of interest, I gave them a try and found the topics of universal interest were also of interest to me. I wished I had done it sooner. So, why all the interest in uniforms, feet, images, films, and all the tactile, sensory objects? Doesn't it make more sense to devote your interest to the place where all this sensory input gets processed, the mind?

• On seeing a form with the eye, do not grasp at any theme or details by which — if you were to dwell without restraint over the faculty of the eye — evil, unskillful qualities such as greed or distress might assail you. Practice for its restraint. Guard the faculty of the eye. Secure your restraint with regard to the faculty of the eye.
  • Kumma Sutta

As far as reading recommendations, what about Ficino's Platonic Theology or something like that, far removed from the senses, exercising the intellect in pristine isolation from senses and sense objects? ~ Peter1c (talk) 00:15, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

You can wash as many feet as you want, Pete.

• Peter1c, how many times do I have to tell you that I consider Plato, like Saint Augustine, to be a rape apologist that wanted his ideal government to breed people against their will through a rigged lottery that required the so called "noble lie"? Dr. How exactly is that different from the rape of the African diaspora by their white American owners, which you seem remarkably uninterested in thanking me for adding 10 months ago to the page for slavery, despite your general focus on African American social issues? And as far as eyes are concerned, I recommend the pages for blindness and Major General J. F. C. Fuller. I also don't understand your motives other than assuming you have a religiously induced, almost necromancer like fear of death like Sidney Poitier was instilled with, (vicariously, for those souls yet unsaved), and a Nimrodish obsession with imagery of fire. Based off the Kumma Sutta quote condemning the eyes you believe G-d gave you, I imagine you would claim you wouldn't mind being blinded by the Canal Defense Light or deafened by an explosion, and wouldn't seek out the sort of divine healing given to those Jesus is said to have done, or his prophet predecessor Moses with the Nehushtan? You really don't make a whole lot of sense Peter, you might want to speak with a therapist or an expert on interpersonal communication, the fact you refuse to tell me what your religion is yet proclaim yourself a student of theology leads me to believe you either don't actually have a religion, are ashamed of uttering it's name, or think you know better than the person who leads your denomination; that, or you are some type of pantheist, which makes you no more a theologian of any particular faith than Kalki is, or a random religious studies major would be considered an expert on any particular religion.
  As far as recommend reading goes, how about this quote from Dr. Paul Ekman as a counter to Plato's hatred of the theater...I know you don't believe in medicine outside of (I'm guessing) germ theory, maybe, although maybe you still think the bubonic plague was caused by demonic possession, that, like your disgusting opinions of women's reproductive rights (which I consider pro-slavery), has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not you are a good editor of Wikiquote.

• As an adult, you may be more sensitive to some emotions than to others. What you learned about reading emotions in your own family might have great applicability to understanding others or relatively little, at least for some emotions. Through watching television, or movies, or a close friend, you may have improved upon and added to your knowledge of facial expressions. Although almost everyone correctly reads some facial expressions, few people realize when they make mistakes or why they make them.
  The rules for translating a particular set of facial wrinkles into the judgement that a person is angry, afraid, etc. would be very hard for most people to describe. When you follow these rules you do so automatically, on the basis of habits established long so long ago that usually you don’t know how they operate, or even when they operate. In this sense, understanding facial expressions of emotion is like driving a car. You don’t think about what you are doing when you do it. Unlike driving a car, with facial expression there never was an earlier period in which you were specifically taught the skills. There is no manual in which you can check how to correct mistakes. There are no equivalents to the traffic cop telling you when you missed or misinterpreted a signal.
  • Paul Ekman, Wallace V. Friesen, Unmasking the Face, Cambridge MA, (2003), p. 8.
    If you have any further off topic religious or sexual questions to ask of me that have nothing to do with editing Wikiquote, I highly recommend you go seek wisdom at Ask a Rabbi, I'm sure they wouldn't mind joining your book club either. By the way, do you read any science journals? If you do not answer all of my questions in your next post, than there will be no more conversations unrelated to editing Wikiquote, you have lost the privilege of speaking with me, any complaints can be taken to an administrator or the village pump, rape apologist. Good day. CensoredScribe (talk) 17:08, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Hi CensoredScribe. The Paul Ekman quote makes a good case for the helpfulness of theater and TV in reading facial expressions. Calvin might reply by asking whether reading facial expressions is as important as reading the word of God (time devoted to the one could be devoted to the other). Regarding your questions, I'm sorry I have not answered all your questions. I sometimes find them hard to understand. I don't recall expressing any opinions on reproductive rights. Adding a quote doesn't imply it expresses my opinion, of course. I appreciate your concerns about Plato. Regarding interpersonal skills, I have made some mistakes and apologize for them. I'm open to feedback. Regarding your recent additions, I'm finding many of your latest additions very impressive. This is really interesting research that you are doing, and the quotations you are adding are interesting. My concern is that many of the additions are encyclopedic in form. I do appreciate peer-reviewed scientific journals and I'm glad you are reading them. The information you are finding is impressive. My concern is just that it would be more appropriate to put on Wikipedia rather than Wikiquote. I hope this makes sense. There may be other venues also where additions aren't subject to review by other editors as they are here. I apologize if I come across as impatient. There is never any animosity intended. ~ Peter1c (talk) 19:02, 2 December 2019 (UTC)

Please stop adding quotes that obviously do not meet Wikiquote:Quotability to theme pages

(Comment: Well, that's one way to not answer any of the questions I've asked repeatedly you and harass your co-workers for unexplained (I'm guessing religious or sexual, maybe?) differences...Why are you acting like a troll, just go edit like when you started here! I didn't come here just to talk to you, go make arguments to an administrator who edits fiction if you care so much about discussing the subject!!!)

You recent addition to Debt obviously does not meet Wikiquote:Quotability. The quote provides the reader with no insight or knowledge about the article topic. You complain when I question your motives, but it is hard for me to imagine what the motive is for additions like these. The additions degrade the quality of the Wikiquote project, make more work for other editors, and create unnecessary conflicts. What is the motive? ~ Peter1c (talk) 14:48, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

How is this different than the addition to betrayal from the same film? Please elaborate as to why one pop culture reference you apparently, up until now, considered to have been acceptable, while the other you do not, until directed to del;ete it by me? Please delete the recent addition to betrayal, if you except me to respect you and not call you a fearful, unimaginitative hyppocrate. I want to hear you defend Star Wars being included on the the theme pages or admit that this is a poorly thought out distraction from what you are really angry and or fearful about concerning my edits. I've noticed you don't pester USDScott Kalki or Daniel Tom like this for their pop culture additions. What gives, why the unhealthy obsession with me? Pick on an admin, your message applies to them as well, doesn't it? Why limit it to me? That betrayal quote is also about a specific instance of a theme being applied, do you really need me to remind you to delete it, or will you explain why that one is acceptable and this one is not? I am deeply confused by you. CensoredScribe (talk) 04:11, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

CensoredScribe, I confront you because you show a systematic pattern of refusal to abide by the consensually decided policy guidelines of the project. The principles for quotability are articulated very clearly here. If you feel that these principles should be revised, this can be done by obtaining consensus. The fact that in some cases policies are not enforced does not imply they are not in force. Your argument here makes about as much sense as a thief arguing that he got away with a heist before and this is therefore a legal precedent permitting future heists. Wikiquote is a collection of notable quotations, not a fandom website. ~ Peter1c (talk) 14:23, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

I fail to see the analogy to thieving, other than these issues both involve precedent, and you wanted to sound bombastic as usual. I would like to speak with both you and UDScott further about what you mean by "Wikiquote is a collection of notable quotations, not a fandom website." Aren't you a "fan" of religion and ? What do you consider to be "fandom"? What about that time you added The Dead Kennedys, "Hyperactive Child" on the page for ADHD? Would you mind explaining how that isn't just another corporate artistic product, like all the others you despise for their alleged mind and soul damaging effects? CensoredScribe (talk) 14:43, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. I reviewed the ADHD page, and the quote you're referring to is from a song that is directly about the page topic. The issue I'm raising is that the quotes you're adding make only incidental reference to the article topic, and provide no interesting or valuable information to readers about the article topic. They won't be of interest to readers who aren't fans of the particular work you're drawing the quotes from. That's why I suggested fandom websites might be a more appropriate venue. Of course if there is a quote from a corporate artistic product that tells readers something genuinely new and insightful about the page topic, that would be considered relevant. But the burden of proof for relevance is much higher for recent works. Regarding precedent, both policy statements and precedents are relevant. But the fact that a recently added quote hasn't yet been removed can hardly be called a precedent. The community has gone to the trouble of creating policy documents. These are at least as important as precedents. I don't recall ever hearing you mention these documents in your arguments. Have you read them? Is anything in them unclear? Regarding bombast, it tends to arise when you exhaust people's patience. ~ Peter1c (talk) 15:15, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

Finally, you concede that under specific circumstances it is appropriate to add pop culture quotes to theme pages!
I spoke to Scott about this current issue, however if you recall in the past you've soap boxed about the value of pop culture, not that having a good memory is a requirement to edit here. And to asnwer your question, yes, I have read the many policy and guideline pages, I suppose you want me to list them all and quote all the test to prove that? If you believe you have sufficient grounds to have me banned, please make your case on the appropriate page, I assume you know where the notice board is, though perhaps not.
The next time you post here I will delete your text/soap boxing about pop culture, and should you restore it, in any form, it will be considered an edit war. I bid you good day. CensoredScribe (talk) 16:16, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

CensoredScribe, thanks for your message.

To demonstrate comprehension of policy guideline pages it is sufficient to follow the guidelines.

The consensus on quotability is articulated on the Wikiquote:Quotability policy page:

• The older a quote is, the more likely it is that the quote has the characteristics that maintain the relevance of that quote in the public mind over the course of many generations.

The discussion of what sources should be emphasized in the Wikiquote project is an important issue relevant to the project, and therefore relevant for discussion on talk pages. I don't think discussion on this topic should be permitted to be silenced by accusations of preaching, soapboxing. It is an issue relevant to the project.

The question is, what is the canon from which we draw quotations? What is the principle used to decide what this canon will be? When we draw quotations from Hollywood productions, this means we concede that the canon is decided by who has the largest marketing budget, rather than by standards of intellectual excellence.

Part of the Wikiquote project is tracing important ideas back to the earliest time they were said. This is important because knowing the first time an idea is introduced allows us to chart the history of the idea through time. If you were to add a quote from a recent production along with a detailed genealogy of where in history the idea behind the quote came from, that would be fabulous. Most of the things said in Hollywood films have been said before. The reason you are getting the Hollywood version rather than the classical version is not because the Hollywood version is the more intellectually excellent version. It is because of the large marketing budget of Hollywood.

You may decide to allow your canon, the diet of ideas going into your mind, to be decided based on marketing budget rather than intellectual excellence. That is your choice. But when you regurgitate your canon into this project, the principles you use to decide your canon become an issue for the community, not just you. I care about you personally, and would really like to help you protect yourself from greedy vipers who lure you into traps with the bait of sensory pleasure. I will concede that part is preaching. But if we set aside the value to you personally, and talk about the quotes you are adding to the project, now the topic is also relevant to the project, and in that aspect I think this discussion about what is canonical is not just preaching. It is a relevant part of the discussion about following consensus guidelines and building consensus about page content. I hope this makes sense.

You have free will. No one can tell you what to do, what to think, watch or read. But if you believe the above quoted statement represents the consensus of the community on quotability, you will have to recognize that your choice of canon is not entirely compatible with your desire to add quotes to the Wikiquote project. ~ Peter1c (talk) 20:32, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

I agree that etymology and finding the original iterations of quotations is important, however, your views on age equaling "canon" may not reflect those of the community; case in point: please explain your opinion on the medical journals I've added and the seeming acceptance of the pages for eating disorders. Do you want this nonintellectual garbage removed for the good of the community, simply for not being X number of years old? I thought impact factor would be enough, but if you need your literature aged like wine, than please, just specify how old it needs to be, for your own personal tastes that you assume others share, without having bothered to ask a larger representative sample of the population at the village pump.
Also, as a side note, semantically, I think you meant to say 100 million Americans "were" morons, seeing as the percentage of the population that reads comic books has consistently gone down since the introduction of television and other forms of home entertainment, and the "idiots" that Dr. Marston was referring to, the vast majority of them anyways, are dead now. Your use of the direct quotation was correct, however you needed to modify the tense for your own criticism as the time period being described is not the one you are in. You can't just assume that a quote about Greeks made in antiquity would apply equally to the state of modern Greece, 100 million Americans, were morons, and a different number would be morons today, according to you, but first you must specify that you are talking about a different demography than the author. Feel free to consult others as to whether I am correct on this, I assume our numerous conversations will be headed to the village pump or the Administrators' noticeboard soon enough, unless you feel like admitting that your arguments, however well worded, are insufficient at this time to result in a block, and you'd rather not be reminded of that by going through the correct channels to receive the opinions of the others you speak for. Do you believe in the concept of active consent, or does a yes mean always yes to you? You should double check to make sure your interpretation of the rules is shared by the community in regards to me, I've spoken to an administrator about this issue, and to the village pump about several other issues you've recently raised, why haven't you started any topics regarding these matters outside of this page? CensoredScribe (talk) 21:18, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

CensoredScribe, thanks for your reply. With your approval I will go ahead and delete the preachy part with the heading about millions of morons. I'm sorry about that. It was intended to provoke debate, not to offend. I am definitely not arguing for a block. Sorry if I gave that impression. I am just requesting that you raise the relevance and notability standards for quotes on existing theme pages. For less literary academic and scientific studies, I would argue it's better to create a separate page (e.g. Media studies). If you create new articles rather than editing existing ones, you will also get more visibility on the main page. It is also possible to create articles that specifically deal with representations of a theme in film or television (like Violence in media). Not sure what gave the impression that I am seeking a block. I have praised your additions on many occasions, so why would I want that? My concern is with quotability standards of additions to theme pages, and to discuss what is worthy of attention in general. I often preach about asceticism and freedom from slavery to the senses in many places, and I understand that I was pushing boundaries by preaching on your talk page. For me it was a good discussion, but I understand my methods should be improved. ~ Peter1c (talk) 22:46, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

CensoredScribe, Thank you for restoring our debate above. I read it again and I think you make some good points. Now why are you trying to first expand and then delete Violence in media? It's a good page. ~ Peter1c (talk) 00:40, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Only two of these links are red links on Wikipedia, Violence in Christianity, Violence in Judaism, Violence in Islam, Violence in Hinduism, Violence in Buddhism and Violence in Atheism: can you guess which? Would you rather add or subtract to bring balance to this situation? Atheism, like Inceldom isn't an organized doctrine with teachings of any kind, it's just a label people give themselves based off a lack of belief in one concept, (the existence of G-d and ever having s-x). Atheism and rationalism are not synonymous concepts and many atheists have non scientific beliefs, I imagine Violence in [A]theism is just going to be a bunch of quotes about Communist governments that will create the impression all atheists feel this way, much like the problems that will arise in distinguishing quotes about Violence in a religion (and by it), with quotes about extreemists. Again, can you guess which religions/lack of religion have a page for this? Do recall, I am not asking your for a similarly named page, I am asking specifically for "X extremism", not "X extremist terrorism", which implies the extremists being discussed on those other pages, are not terrorists, one might imagine than instead just an "extreme" youth religious leader from the "wicked" 90's with a "sick" skateboard and a "grungy" used holy book.
Also, as someone whop seems to be creating pages for very specific topics, would you object to adding a page for Topping from the bottom and various other sex positions, the Kama Sutra lists many. CensoredScribe (talk) 04:01, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Hello? You posted an image on this talk page without answering my questions. (When I added images to my talk page well after the initial posts, I was told was it was a "smokescreen", perhaps you added this as a distraction after an attempt to remove the conversation resulted in a reversion/restoration. Why you added this image to this section without adding anything else seems strange, like an impulsive afterthought of little importance to the discussion, given it was added after those thoughts were initially expressed, which was without images.) CensoredScribe (talk) 19:49, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

CensoredScribe, I am sorry again about the image. I hope you believe me that it was intended to be conciliatory. I don't understand what the character means, so it was bad judgment on my part to use it. I was just intending to convey that I am still evolving, and I value your arguments and your point of view. You are right that I haven't really answered your questions. I have always been under the impression that if there is a Wikipedia page for a topic, this means there is community consensus on Wikipedia that the topic is notable. If there are one or more notable quotes on the topic, this always seemed to me to be enough to justify a page. I'm still not clear on why you voted to delete Medicine in Star Trek and Violence in media. The quotes you collected are very relevant on these pages. The topics are notable. It seems all good to me. I was serious about wanting to understand your motivations better. I have been assuming that you are doing a thesis on media studies, based on the quality academic papers you read on this topic, but now I'm not sure whether we talked about this or I just assumed this. I like what you write about "Violence in X" pages for certain religions and not others. I would say there's no prima facie reason to assume deliberate intention to omit certain topics. It's more likely just a question of no one having taken an interest in the topic yet. It's always good to create new pages. I didn't understand the part about the smokescreen. I'm guessing this is from a conversation with other editors? Some of your questions it's hard to respond to because I'm not familiar with the pages or the issues. I will concede I am a bad ambassador, not much of a diplomat. Sorry about that. I value your contributions and I'm glad for the opportunity to work with you on this project. ~ Peter1c (talk) 03:39, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, you are correct in using inference to determine that I was referring to a conversation with someone other than you, the majority of conversations on my user talk page are still with people other than you, for the time being, though that is probably going to change soon given how often you like to talk "with" me. You still seem to want to know my "motivations" for edits you consider a waste of time compared to quoting seemingly any religious text, given how little you specify which religious texts you consider to harm your "mind and soul", the complaint you've made about consuming entertainment from Hollywood. Would you care to explain why consider reading Aleister Crowley better for your mind and soul than watching Inuyasha?
I expected you wouldn't want to admit to being quite that familiar with my page talk history regardless of whether you actually are or not, (you are, which makes you a liar), however the smoke screen comment appears to be from made by Mdd, whom I suggest you speak with if you are still confused on this issue. CensoredScribe (talk) 14:38, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

OK, I did not know about this edit. I would be on your side on this one. This explains some things. You seem to assume omniscience on the part of other editors. I did not know about this edit. Now I understand why adding image made you upset. Sorry about this. You have my support if you want to restore deleted images. Ironic that at time of this edit other editors are accusing you of "incivility," but "undecorating" your talk page does not exactly set an example of civility for you. Sorry about this. ~ Peter1c (talk) 06:29, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

I will agree with you that recently I've been assuming too much about you, I'm not particularly interested in asking whether your first revert of an edit of mine was actually the first time you learned about me, and establishing some kind of timeline; that's a bit too nosey, time consuming and paranoid for me to want to do, I'm curious however if yours is the type of religiosity that might pre-judge me and ascribe attributes to me based off something I might have said or an edit I've made. I don't recall ever claiming a godlike omniscience, or "warning" you of Aleister Crowley, or the numerous religions he was involved with beyond mentioning that if you walked up to a local community's religious authorities with one of his books, it would probably be of more concern to them than say a comic book from an era of intense censorship? Have you tested that yet by any chance?
For that matter, your concern with sports and games that you've mentioned was an issue while studying theology at seminary school is something that most of your local community's religious authorities should hopefully be aware of given how significant an impact on culture Muscular Christianity seems to have had on both Protestant and Catholic practitioners and the fact this was a serious issue of secular and religious contention in society before.
I would however like to apologize for accusing you of selling out your account information to anyone, much less a specific individual. I believe what you call omniscience most other people who are not students of religion would probably just call BS, and for that part I am sorry. As someone who has been falsely accused of sock puppeteering on Wikipedia on numerous occasions (probably for the several occasions on which I actually did sockpuppet), I should know better than to perpetuate an online Fergoli Delusion, just because it's personally convenient to cast shade on someone else using the nebulousness of the internet and the paranoia that can generate. Particularly when it's something as unlikely as you conspiring with a well known science and video game advocate (I assume that person in question did more than just edit the Gamergate article on Rationalwiki, but if not, just video game advocate; I also don't bother to keep tabs on people, and don't read a lot of user contribution history pages beyond the first page listing recent activities. However, I also tend not to question the motives of other editors unless a discussion at the village pump or administrators is going to be involved at some point to actually acquire the input of more than just two, really interesting people...)
I will "warn" against either of us playing continuing to play detective, (or online diagnostician when it involves "mind", in addition to "soul") as being a detective, is an incredibly rude game to play, though it seems to have become the popular 21st century equivalent to cops and robbers, for girls and boys of all ages and an internet connection it seems.
It might be worth my time now however to see what other editors you've given the third degree like with me, or if I'm your first outside of the chats I see you've had with Daniel Tom in the past that seemed to end rather quickly without really discussing any issues you might agree or disagree on, outside of the suggestion that you might eventually want to do so...come to think about it, it's kind of weird how I never get a series of edits reverted by both of you at the same time, you'd think the three of us would have crossed paths at some point. Hey! You know, I could always ask you your opinions on controversial issues if you would like, I think it would be more productive at defining who we are as non editors than whatever this informal inquisition is supposed to be for.
Anyways, I think also perhaps there should be some disclaimer given on user talk pages, similar to the one for the talk pages for various themes and works, about it not just being for general discussion of that page's topic but for actual improvements, you've managed to meander the conversation far away from any actual edits that you can link to, any concern I or any other editor may have for your (Christian muscles/Qi energy flow/"mind and soul"/etc.) is not something I see as being particularly relevant to your editing patterns, just a religiously backed personal attack. If this is really about edits than include a link to that edit or at least specify which edits you are referring to. CensoredScribe (talk) 01:06, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

Community Insights Survey

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Sincerely,

RMaung (WMF) 14:34, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

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A couple of weeks ago, we invited you to take the Community Insights Survey. It is the Wikimedia Foundation’s annual survey of our global communities. We want to learn how well we support your work on wiki. We are 10% towards our goal for participation. If you have not already taken the survey, you can help us reach our goal! Your voice matters to us.

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Sincerely,

RMaung (WMF) 19:13, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

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There are only a few weeks left to take the Community Insights Survey! We are 30% towards our goal for participation. If you have not already taken the survey, you can help us reach our goal! With this poll, the Wikimedia Foundation gathers feedback on how well we support your work on wiki. It only takes 15-25 minutes to complete, and it has a direct impact on the support we provide.

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Woods and covid

The February quote from Jeffrey Woods you recently added seems to be rather outdated by the subsequent events. Especially the claim that "influenza is a much bigger problem" when in the United States, in less than a year, it has caused 380,000 deaths compared to an average 60,000 yearly influenza deaths (and the same is also true for most of Europe and Latin America). --2001:B07:646C:244E:E09F:BC02:8751:6EB5 23:33, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

@2001:B07:646C:244E:E09F:BC02:8751:6EB5 23:33: I am trying to get you to respond to a question I posted almost simultaneously at:Talk:Coronavirus_disease_2019#Need_for_an_update. I hope you will come back and answer. Cheers, Ottawahitech (talk) 22:03, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

Asking for your opinion

HI CensoredScribe I am new to the world of American politics, but loved the attributed quote you added to Richard Nixon - what a well written article! Just wondering what you think about adding this same quote to, say, Henry Kissinger ( An Anonymous Trump Official Claims Insiders Are 'Thwarting' Him. That May Have Happened to Nixon Too ), since the history at google suggests this Nixon-quote iteslf is well-known. I hope I am making sense? Thanks in advance, Ottawahitech (talk) 21:11, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

barn door image

Hi CensoredScribe

Just wanted to stop by and thank you for the new image at Travel restrictions related to the COVID-19 pandemic. Cheers, Ottawahitech (talk) 16:56, 30 November 2021 (UTC)

I looked for an image that was a close up to avoid any additional barnyard architecture; it also looks nice next to the flag. CensoredScribe (talk) 04:48, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Nation states are archaic leftovers...

Hi CensoredScribe, I like the new quote you added to countries:

Nation states are archaic leftovers from when each man feared the tribe over the hill, an attitude we can’t afford anymore. ~ David Brin

I must say you make it very difficult for me to use the thanks button to thank you for your many excellent contrbutions when you lump many different edits into one edit. I myself try to limit the number of changes I make in each edit to allow others to revert me without going to too much trouble. Am I making sense? Ottawahitech (talk) 16:15, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

I think the amount of change that is made to a page before it hinders the ability of others to reasonably review that edit in a timely manner, in order to access its’ quality, depends somewhat on what the page in question is, and also on the amount of time that elapses before that person's next edit to that page. It is no more a constructive back and forth dialogue between editors to be posting fifty edits quickly in succession without anyone else’s input than making the one very large edit. Writing papers in school and watching Last Week Tonight with John Oliver leads me to believe in the value of doing a deep dive on a subject. both as a way of better understanding it, as well as a way to see what information is conveyed by multiple sources and which is unique.
It would be much faster for a highly communicative and well coordinated team that evenly distributes the workload to go through a given Wikipedia page's list of citations than it would be for any one individual. Although conversely, in the case of a badly coordinated group that runs into one another, the process can end up taking longer as they wait in line for a response before moving forward, during which time one's probably accumulated a backlog of quotes for others to sift through. People move at different speeds and have a hard time adjusting to that of others: no one runs faster in a three legged race.
I think it is more a hassle when citing multiple sources like journal and magazine articles which all require individual assessment, than just citing one work for which there is already a page that's been recognized as being notable. If you create a new page for a short work of fiction than it still helps to include enough quotations from it that it isn't tagged for deletion as a frivolous addition: many consider video games of any era to have the same literary value as a box of cereal, and in the case of the older games the box of cereal may in fact have more text. At roughly 30 lines of dialogue, The Legend of Zelda should be fairly easy to review regardless of whether the entire script is included; with other pages, not so much. CensoredScribe (talk) 04:48, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

If you would like to propose a maximum length for new additions to Wikiquote, the place to do so would be the village pump; although, it might be worth considering that it took you three edits to the page for COVID-19 pandemic in Canada to add any actual quotes, during which time it would have been appropriate to tag the article for deletion. Why you felt it was constructive to add a quotes section with no quotations in it is also quite questionable, unless your goal was to maximize your edit count/high score by making the most minimal and trivial additions. CensoredScribe (talk) 22:14, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time for such an elaborate response. Let me start with a simple question:

Are you sure Village pump is the right place to discuss how long quotes should be? In my experience these type of discussions may take months or years, so may be archived way prematurely. Ottawahitech (talk) 20:34, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

I would like to say yes just as a formality, however in reality you are correct in that assessment: it's kind of a joke how quickly things move on the comedy wiki Uncyclopedia in comparison, it takes five people on Uncyclopedia to nominate a featured article and they have a week to do so, with the Quote of the Day there's no minimum number of votes needed and even though you can vote a year ahead of the deadline it's still rare for five people to show up and vote on the same quote. The page for Votes for Deletion here points out that there really isn't a set time limit for discussions to close, and the votes don't necessarily count like they do for the Quote of the Day; so despite all the quotes about democracy, voting isn't really Wikiquote's strength.
According to the reference desk the village pump is for asking questions about Wikiquote, and while the village pump's introduction says it's also the place to make suggestions it makes no promises about those suggestions ever being voted on or ever implemented; whether such a thing has ever happened before is probably a question for one of the administrators as it is unlikely anyone else would remember. Most of the topics at the village pump seem to receive at most two responses anyways, so it's fairly safe to assume it's little more than a complaint box and a news bulletin board. If it's a suggestion that doesn't pertain to a specific page, than the administrators' notice board or an administrator's talk page is effectively the place to get anything done in a reasonable amount of time, in that sense Wikiquote is essentially a very small hierarchical republic.
So no, I was wrong, any issue concerning Wikiquote it's self should just be brought to an administrator, only that doesn't sound nearly as good as a discussion at the pump and isn't officially how it's supposed to work. CensoredScribe (talk) 22:12, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Re: Village pump is the right place

In my experience VP is definitely not the right place to develop meaningful discussion. The latest effort I am currently engaged in can be viewed HERE (sorry don't have time to fix the link - maybe later?)

btw I am still trying to use the new reply tool, but I sure wish there was a way to leave a comment summary.

Cheers, Ottawahitech (talk) 17:08, 23 December 2021 (UTC) updated Ottawahitech (talk) 15:17, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Back in December I was here trying to illustrate that discussion on the Village pump rarely achieve the desired effect. I pointed to an example where someone(me) was trying to engage a wmf employee in answering questions about a lengthy piece the employee posted.

Unfortunately The link(HERE) no longer points to the discussion I had in mind because it was archived, and the wiki-software is not smart enough to update links when material is archived.

So with no further ado here is the link to the archived discussion

Wikiquote:Village_pump_archive_59#Encouraging_wider_participation_from_historically_excluded_communities Cheers and sorry for the long delay, Ottawahitech (talk) 14:45, 8 May 2022 (UTC)

Edit Countitis

I know we were talking about the subject somewhere, not sure where. I am not sure why this edit was done. Is it because the User was trying to save time, or did not want to be accused of EC? I would normally ask him directly, but they are currently accomplishing some very important IMIO things for this community, so I am holding my breath for now. Just thought I would get your thoughts on this matter. Cheers, Ottawahitech (talk) 17:53, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

I'm afraid I don't know this person or what Edit Countitis is so I can't be of much help. You said they were doing something too important for the community for you to be bothering them by asking them a simple question, so why exactly do you bother me instead? Do you not consider Roe v. Wade to be of as much importance to the #SheSaid community as what this person is doing? CensoredScribe (talk) 18:36, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi CensoredScribe, I just saw your response, half a year after it was posted. I apologize for having troubled you more than a year ago. I will try to remember not to do it again. Ottawahitech (talk) 14:53, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

Hays Code

Please see my comments at Talk:Hays Code - I think the page might be in some need of trimming to keep only memorable quotes. Thanks. ~ ~ UDScott (talk) 00:24, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Sorry about that, I was just going to leave the top three entries per list than pick another one that might be just as important but listed a little lower, like for example entry six for sex, miscegenation, which was enforced in such a fashion as to limit who got to play the lead roles in any big budget movie, not just the ones advertised as romances. CensoredScribe (talk) 18:36, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

1016 or 2016?

Do you mean "Barrack Obama State of the Union (Jan 12th 2016)" instead of 1016 (in your user page)? The RedBurn (talk) 23:44, 23 April 2023 (UTC)

The bar for quotability and notability as it pertains to recent subject matters unimagined by authors of antiquity

Hi CensoredScribe,

I was chasing down the links to a redirect I had just created, and to my surprise found one in a 2019 posting you made at the VP. I found it curious that you had spent so much effort composing your post, but did not followup when someone responded with a question.

May I ask why? Thanks in advance, Ottawahitech (talk) 14:07, 3 November 2023 (UTC)

Because I thought the answer to the question had already been stated clearly and didn't want to insult Burwhatdoiknow by saying as much.
Now if you don't mind me asking Ottawahitech, as someone who scours through old posts, what is your opinion on the way DanielTom used dozens of edit summaries to call me incompetent? I have asked you this question before and received no response, and you seem like the kind of person who is easily offended, per your comments on last words in fiction promoting violence and your concern with offending speakers of the Igbo language. CensoredScribe (talk) 21:24, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Tl;dr

You have a problem with too many, too long quotes. In general a quote is a pithy aphorism, not a text wall from some dry indigestible academic paper. Find the “gist” you think is quotable and extract it. If there is no “gist” then don’t bother even if you think it’s a brilliant paragraph as a whole. Dronebogus (talk) 14:44, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm not going to pretend as if though many of those selections wouldn't benefit from having a good editor. I would appreciate having additional assistance with the abortion pages in particular, as right now it really doesn't really feel like much of a team effort. Feel free to start with Christianity and abortion if you don't like academic papers, but be aware that religious leaders can be just as long winded as scientists. CensoredScribe (talk) 21:24, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

• Seriously, you cannot quote a page from a work. This isn't stylistic preference. It's a copyright issue. Stop it. GMG^talk 18:44, 27 December 2023 (UTC)

Leave comments on talkpages, instead of userpages

Hello, you have left your comment on User:Ottawahitech, instead, it's adividable for you to leave them on talk page, e.g. User talk:Ottawahitech. Thanks. Lemonaka (talk) 23:40, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

@Lemonaka: Censorscribe knows that, I am sure. We all make mistakes, no need to make a big deal about it IMIO. Ottawahitech (talk) 00:51, 25 November 2023 (UTC)

I thought I saw someone else had posted on your userpage but I was mistaken, I apologize. Technically you could use your userpage as a second talk page if you really wanted to, although that's kind of an odd choice. CensoredScribe (talk) 21:24, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi CensoredScribe, I just saw you had responded to my previous post above. I am not sure what you mean when you say "Technically you could use your userpage as a second talk page". I don't see how that would be possible for the following reasons:

• One does not have access to the button Add topic on pages that are not talk-pages
• If one gets blocked (which I am prone to, unfortunately) one cannot respond to posts on one's user-talk-page
• One does not get notices when another user posts a msg on the user-page instead of the user-talk-page

Am I making sense? Ottawahitech (talk) 19:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Where are you?

You have contributed a lot of useful content to topics related to medicine. I especially noticed all your contributions to COVID-related topics, and women's health. Unfortunately your prolific contributions stoped on January 18 of this year. I hope you will be back. Ottawahitech (talk) 18:51, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Category:Chronologically ordered people pages to be converted to alphabetical ordering

Hi, just a quick question: why do you feel this people page should not be in chronological order? The people template we use incorporates chronological sorting, plus it seems to be particularly useful for political figures, since the timing of their often many quotes usually provides key context to their remarks. I'm not sure why Kamala Harris should not also be ordered in this way. ~ UDScott (talk) 17:32, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Sorry for the miscommunication, I knew that is the norm to do that for political figures alive during the era of consistent calendars and reliable records and I agree that it is more useful in terms of context to order it that way, I should have clarified that I was referring exclusively to the about section. The about sections on the pages for political figures are almost always alphabetic, in contrast to the rest of the pages. I didn't see any cleanup categories, or categories in general, pertaining to about sections, so I wasn't sure whether I should create a new category that applies to only part of a page. Despite not having any examples it's still not a bad idea for a category, not every political figure's page can be organized chronologically as older quotations often don't have dates that historians can actually agree on, editors might not be aware of that controversy however or it's academic significance. The correct cleanup category for that page should be titled: People pages with chronologically ordered about sections to be converted to alphabetic ordering. CensoredScribe (talk) 21:55, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Wikimedia mailing lists

You might be interested in joining some of Wikimedia's many mailing lists, where people ask questions of others who share some particular interest or expertise. Two that I subscribe to that might interest you are https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/gendergap.lists.wikimedia.org/ and for more general questions https://lists.wikimedia.org/postorius/lists/wiki-research-l.lists.wikimedia.org/ HouseOfChange (talk) 03:11, 9 September 2024 (UTC)

Those both look like very valuable educational and community resources, thank you very much for letting me know about them HouseOfChange. Wikipedia itself is strangely one of the harder things to learn about on Wikipedia, the information is there somewhere, but its not all on one page. CensoredScribe (talk) 15:15, 10 September 2024 (UTC)

HouseOfChange, just out of curiosity, do you yourself use either of these mailing lists? I have lots of ideas for potential research involving online communities such as ours, but as I have mentioned to Ottawahitech I don't think the gender gap is specifically the Wikimedia community's fault, it represents a much larger problem that effects all of the internet. I believe Wikis haves a lot in common with classrooms, they are places of education, but also with a lot of bullying and little if anything in the form of financial reward. So, like with teaching, you would expect there not to be much of a gender gap and for a bunch of altruistic women to be involved because they know it's for the greater good. That is not the case however. I think the gender gap has more to do with doxxing and Section 230 which makes it so social media websites are not held legally accountable for defamatory statements made by their 3rd party users, as online platforms are for some strange reason not considered publishers like a newspaper. The only thing any of us can do to address that problem is lobby the congressional representatives of the country whose laws most influence how Wikimedia operates (America) and hope they for some reason care about Wikipedia and the women who choose not to edit it out of fear. That's really the only thing I have to say about the subject, if you think I need to join a mailing list just to make one post than I have to wonder why you don't make that post yourself. I don't want to join because I have the sad feeling I'll make more enemies than friends. CensoredScribe (talk) 20:30, 6 December 2024 (UTC)

There are many women who edit wiki projects -- not as many women as men, but lots more than zero women are involved. I don't think you "need to" join any lists. I brought up the topic because I thought you might find it interesting and enjoyable to observe interactions of other people who share some of your concerns. I still subscribe to both lists but it has been years since I posted anything to either one. My life's pretty busy right now. I hope my work makes the project better but the small time I can give will hardly change the world in any big way. HouseOfChange (talk) 01:12, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

HouseOfChange, it's been my understanding that the percentage of Wikipedia editors who are women is roughly 15%. Although I would certainly appreciate the like-minded company and appreciate your letting me know about these mailing lists, I'm not sure if there being a gender gap is even one of my concerns if there's actually a very good reason for it like fear for one's personal safety. If fear of doxxing is the main reason more women don't edit Wikipedia, it's worth noting this is a concern that applies not just to one's self editing Wikis but to others around them editing as well: romantic partners, family, friends, co-workers, etc. If someone told me they didn't want to be associated with me because of my increased notoriety and the public scrutiny which might come from me doing this, I would not argue with their reasoning, but I would if all I edited was episodes of The Simpsons or SpongeBob SquarePants. We all have different experiences editing Wikiquote and Wikipedia, some more conventional than others, others more controversial. CensoredScribe (talk) 19:49, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Please don't retire

Please don't retire. I see you put a noteice on your user-page? Ottawahitech (talk) 19:13, 10 November 2024 (UTC)

Asking some obvious questions is one of your greatest gifts, I really do mean that. I know some of the purists around this community think we should not engage in discussion and only contribute good quotes (whatever that means), but I disagree. Thinking about and discussing our values is just as important to advancing the sum of all knowledge, IMIO. We are human volunteers, not robots. We cannot be ordered around like slaves. We have to understand why we are doing what we are doing.

Here are a couple of recent examples where you tried to get some discussion going which I believe should continue to develop:

• Is dating someone just because they edit Wikiquote paid editing?
• Gender bias on Wikiquote

Ottawahitech (talk) 13:00, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

It feels a bit disingenuous asking questions I already know the answers to, like a TV infomercial with an actor in the audience asking about all the amazing features of the product. The reason more women don't edit Wikimedia is because they are afraid of getting doxxed, because nothing on the internet can legally be considered libel. The internet is global but the rules it follows seem to be exclusively American. That is also the reason Wikiquote editors don't talk about Wikis on other social media, but if you saw a room full of people wearing masks to obscure their identities you would assume it was a gang and probably be right. This is basically a classroom so you would expect a similar gender ratio to any other classroom but that is not the case, the gender gap in WWII soldiers is less than it is on Wikimedia Foundation websites. The WMF did not invent this problem so expecting them to solve it is out of their depth. Something that big requires social attitudes to shift and legal changes, which I don't see happening without super majorities capable of beating a filibuster.
Also, I meant what I said about a music video, Megan Thee Stallion is someone who understands being afraid and needing to stand up for what's right, at least if Thot Shit is any indication. People would watch her typing in a chair, I think a lot of gangster rap was designed for driving, you could make music meant for typing. CensoredScribe (talk) 15:36, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

Re:The reason more women don't edit Wikimedia is because they are afraid of getting doxxed

How do u know that? Are you speculating or can you provide refs? Just kidding.

I for one definitely agree with your statement, but wonder how many others do and whether there are also other reasons there is a gender gap on wikimedia projects. Ottawahitech (talk) 13:40, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, that means a lot to me. There may be other reasons, but I think this is the main one that we don't talk about because it's like looking down on a tightrope. CensoredScribe (talk) 00:04, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Re: Wikiquote editors don't talk about Wikis on other social media

I assume you mean social media outside of wikimedia projects? Ottawahitech (talk) 13:44, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

Correct. I've not encountered that level of compartmentalization of sharing of personal information between Wiki's before, we are free to use different usernames on different Wikimedia projects, but that is not something I see as being particularly prevalent. CensoredScribe (talk) 00:04, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Re: if you saw a room full of people wearing masks to obscure their identities you would assume it was a gang and probably be righ

Me,I would assume they are all afraid of catching an infectious disease, and I know someone who thinks wearing a mask is a sign that the mask wearer has COVID-19, and is trying to shield others. Ottawahitech (talk) 13:49, 14 November 2024 (UTC)

My apologies, I overgeneralized on this one and don't mean to stigmatize anyone. I posted an article from Vogue that addressed masking stigma, there are legitimate medical and political reasons I do not refute, I thought that author made excellent points and I agree with them. It will be especially important to practice good intercommunicable illness hygiene if we don't get vaccines anymore, which is something I'm worried about given Polio killed one of my favorite authors Dr. Marston. CensoredScribe (talk) 00:04, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I mean really, if she was the one who approached us about it, then is there a reason we couldn't allow Megan Thee Stallion to dress up like Wikiquote-tan? That character, if you can call it that, is an unofficial mascot anyways, the licensing costs for the imagery of the Wikimedia foundation can't be that much and a lot of companies actually pay the studios for product placement, so this would be an amazingly good deal that would cost us nothing if an eccentric was funding it and just needed our permission. When Japan's economy was in trouble one of the prime ministers suggested using their domestic anime industry to fix it, it wasn't just unemployment but the entire economy. If you had the CGI budget of a modern blockbuster superhero film, you could in theory employ thousands of people making an elaborate music video. I wouldn't want to limit her creative decisions, but if you made it giantess themed and about city destruction that's a city's worth of CGI animator jobs. I'm curious what your opinion on this is Ottawahitech? CensoredScribe (talk) 22:06, 13 November 2024 (UTC)

I know we don't currently have a marketing department, but could we? I don't want to be an admin, but I would love to help recruit more editors with commercials and social media outreach programs and I think by being emotionally honest with each other we could effectively do that. CensoredScribe (talk) 00:04, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

Re: Here are a couple of recent examples where you tried to get some discussion going which I believe should continue to develop

UDScott did not comment on the question about paid editing, but given I received different answers from different administrators it would seem it was a good question to ask. I received no responses from any editors either positive or negative regarding their personal experiences, or lack of experiences, mentioning Wikiquote on dating websites. However, UDScott considered the dating website question to be an improper use of the village pump that did not pertain to improving Wikiquote, even though it is essential to understanding the concerns prospective editors have in editing Wikiquote and figuring out why the gender gap in editors exists and how, after decades of dealing with it but little progress, we can finally address the number one criticism of Wikis.
Another question I would consider asking to better understand the common experience of editing Wikiquote is this: have you ever lost a friendship because of your editing? My friends have never directly expressed their opinions on me doing this so I can't say definitively whether this is the cause of my feelings of increasing alienation towards them or not, it could be other variables, maybe we were never very good friends to begin with and time just caused us to further drift apart as we became our own very different people. You brought up how we aren't robots, I have always looked at it more as being a cyborg, I think there are both benefits and detriments to usages of any technology, but we don't seem to really talk about what exactly those are to the newcomers here for whatever reasons, so they are left to figure it out on their own. I still think I made the correct decision in editing Wikiquote, most people don't have time to read all these references and no one should have to write a thousand page long doctoral dissertation in order to go and see a doctor. CensoredScribe (talk) 21:37, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

off topic: what happened to misery? Ottawahitech (talk) 14:55, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

I don't know, but it kind of felt like a stranger asking you to follow them down an alleyway. Besides, we can have different categories for pages than Wikipedia and the subject of discussions should involve Wikiquote. CensoredScribe (talk) 19:35, 17 November 2024 (UTC)

Misery

Dear CensoredScribe can you restore any horror film related categories to the Misery film article on English Wikipedia? 152.86.164.35 02:36, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

I mean, yeah, I could do that with a sock puppet account, but I really shouldn't because that behavior is considered antisocial by most of the community. Unless I am mistaken, I believe I am still indefinitely banned on Wikipedia for having engaged in wheel reverting over categories, and even if for some reason I was allowed back because of my contributions on Wikiquote and exhibiting character growth, I would still choose to prioritize adding quotations from Wikipedia references to Wikiquote over editing Wikipedia. I enjoyed my time there, but my place is here.
Just out of curiosity though, what are the categories? CensoredScribe (talk) 16:21, 16 November 2024 (UTC)

If I had ready-made links I would go over to the mothership to check if you were banned or merely indef-blocked. Unfortunately it would take way too long to try to find my way there, since I am very easily side-tracked Ottawahitech (talk) 10:02, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

I should stop using the two terms like they are synonymous, but the difference between the two distinctions has never seemed clear to me and like it was a largely philosophical or semantic division. I'm assuming being banned is the more severe of the two and is harder to reverse, however saying double exile is a bit silly sounding and like it's a concept that doesn't really scale. It's Newspeak almost, double plus good. CensoredScribe (talk) 22:55, 19 November 2024 (UTC)

Please don't retire

I continue to admire your tenacity: wiki sisters Ottawahitech (talk) 16:59, 22 November 2024 (UTC)

Every article for #SheSaid you've created that was deleted for lack of notability, is considered less notable than these three fictional costumes/characters. OS-Tans normally don't come in groups, these costumes remind me of The Powerpuff Girls, but without the good writing. CensoredScribe (talk) 00:58, 24 November 2024 (UTC)

Curation

Look, I'm not saying that any of your articles shouldn't exist. I'm saying that their content should be curated and copy-edited on the respective Talk pages. To begin with, there are simply too many copy errors, and in some cases little bits of IP vandalism which have gone overlooked as the articles grew so large.

Since mifepristone was introduced in France and China more than two decades ago, medical abortion with this antiprogestin has expanded rapidly throughout the world. Mifepristone is now registered in 50 countries (www. gynuity.org, accessed 14 December 2011). In the United States, about one fifth of all outpatient abortions are performed medically, and in several countries in Europe, the proportion exceeds 60%. Although medical abortion regimens approved by most government regulatory agencies specify 600 mg mifepristone, in practice, a dose of 200 mg is standard worldwide. A prostaglandin, misoprostol, is administered after the mifepristone to enhance success. The dose, route, and timing of administration of misoprostol are not standardized. In the United States, affiliates of Planned Parenthood Federation of America provide 800 mcg buccally 24–48 h after the mifepristone. The International Federation of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists recommends either vaginal, buccal, or sublingual administration as do the World Health Organization and the United Kingdom Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists, which also recommend oral dosing at gestational ages up to 49 days. Lower doses, divided doses, oral administration, and a shorter or longer interval between the two drugs also have been used clinically or evaluated in research studies.

How is this quotable? Ficaia (talk) 16:42, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

It is notable because there are multiple professional organizations with different standards of care that are not in concurrence with one another, which is unusual.
Also, you are using the cherry picking fallacy, I've added millions of words, and it's still in the 99th percentile of accuracy, it's just after a while you start to notice the errors because of the large volume. Things in parenthesis like citations can generally go (or not), many people trained in academia (which is most of us), prefer knowing where the information being referenced is coming from, I can omit them from now on if it's that bothering to you.
I appreciate adding these to the talk page, you are unfortunately the closest thing I've had to a collaborator on many of these topics despite our areas of expertise having little overlap, I have yet to see you add anything from a science journal. I thought abortion as portrayed in film and on TV was worth mentioning more than interchangeable technical descriptions, although maybe it should be under an "In fiction" section though like we have for war. CensoredScribe (talk) 17:08, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

It's not cherry-picking when I can cite countless examples. Ficaia (talk) 17:24, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Here are some more:

• Background: The dose of mifepristone approved by most government agencies for medical abortion is 600 mg. Our aim was to summarize extant data on the effectiveness and safety of regimens using the widely recommended lower mifepristone dose, 200 mg, followed by misoprostol in early pregnancy and to explore potential correlates of abortion failure. Study design: To identify eligible reports, we searched Medline, reviewed reference lists of published reports, and contacted experts to identify all prospective trials of any design of medical abortion using 200 mg mifepristone followed by misoprostol in women with viable pregnancies up to 63 days' gestation. Two authors independently extracted data from each study. We used logistic regression models to explore associations between 15 characteristics of the trial groups and, separately, the rates of medical abortion failure and of ongoing pregnancy. Results: We identified 87 trials that collectively included 120 groups of women treated with a regimen of interest. Of the 47,283 treated subjects in these groups, abortion outcome data were reported for 45,528 (96%). Treatment failure occurred in 2,192 (4.8%) of these evaluable subjects. Ongoing pregnancy was reported in 1.1% (499/45,150) of the evaluable subjects in the 117 trial groups reporting this outcome. The risk of medical abortion failure was higher among trial groups in which at least 25% of subjects had gestational age >8 weeks, the specified interval between mifepristone and misoprostol was less than 24 h, the total misoprostol dose was 400 mcg (rather than higher), or the misoprostol was administered by the oral route (rather than by vaginal, buccal, or sublingual routes). Across all trials, 119 evaluable subjects (0.3%) were hospitalized, and 45 (0.1%) received blood transfusions.
• Material and methods: We searched Embase, MEDLINE, Cochrane Library, Cinahl Plus and Web-of-Science on 2 January 2020 for prospective and retrospective cohort studies with ≥50 women per gestational age group, published in English from 1995 onwards, that included women undergoing medical abortion and compared home expulsion of pregnancies of ≤9+0 weeks' gestational age with pregnancies of 9+1 -10+0 weeks or >10+1 weeks' gestational age, or compared the latter two gestational age groups. We assessed risk-of-bias using the Newcastle-Ottowa scale. All outcomes were meta-analyzed as risk ratios (RR) using the Mantel-Haenszel method. The certainty of the evidence was assessed using GRADE. Results: Six studies (n = 3381) were included. The "need for emergency care/admission to hospital" (RR = 0.79, 95% confidence interval [CI] 0.45-1.4), "hemorrhage requiring transfusion/≥500 mL blood loss" (RR = 0.62, 95% CI 0.11-3.55), patient satisfaction (RR = 0.99, 95% CI 0.95-1.03), pain (RR = 0.91, 95% CI 0.82-1.02), and "complete abortion without the need for surgical intervention" (RR = 1.03, 95% CI 1-1.05) did not differ statistically significantly between the ≤9+0 and >9+0 weeks' gestation groups. The rates of vomiting (RR = 0.8, 95% CI 0.69-0.93) and diarrhea (RR = 0.85, 95% CI 0.73-0.99) were statistically significantly lower in the ≤9+0 weeks group but these differences were not considered clinically important. We found no studies comparing pregnancies of 9+1 -10+0 weeks' gestation with pregnancies of >10+0 weeks' gestation. The certainty of this evidence was predominantly low and mainly compromised by low event rates and loss to follow up. Conclusions: Women who are having a medical abortion and will be taking mifepristone up to and including 10+0 weeks' gestation should be offered the option of expulsion at home after they have taken the misoprostol. Further research needs to determine whether the gestational limit for home expulsion can be extended beyond 10+0 weeks.
• Main results: Fourty RCTs were included, addressing various agents for pregnancy termination and methods of administration. When used alone, misoprostol was an effective inductive agent, though it appeared to be more effective in combination with mifepristone. However, the evidence from RCTs is limited. Misoprostol was preferably administered vaginally, although among multiparous women sublingual administration appeared equally effective. A range of doses of vaginally administered misoprostol has been used. No randomised trials comparing doses of misoprostol were identified; however low doses of misoprostol appear to be associated with fewer side-effects while moderate doses appear to be more efficient in completing abortion. Four RCTs showed that the induction to abortion interval with 3-hourly vaginal administration of prostaglandins is shorter than 6-hourly administration without an increase in side-effects. Many studies reported the need for surgical evacuation. Indications for surgical evacuation include retained products of the placenta and heavy vaginal bleeding. Fewer women required surgical evacuation when misoprostol was administrated vaginally compared with women receiving intra-amniotical PGF(2a) . Mild, self-limiting diarrhoea was more common among women who received misoprostol compared to other agents. Authors' conclusions: Medical abortion in the second trimester using the combination of mifepristone and misoprostol appeared to have the highest efficacy and shortest abortion time interval. Where mifepristone is not available, misoprostol alone is a reasonable alternative. The optimal route for administering misoprostol is vaginally, preferably using tablets at 3-hourly intervals. Apart from pain, the side-effects of vaginal misoprostol are usually mild and self limiting. Conclusions from this review are limited by the gestational age ranges and variable medical regimens, including dosing, administrative routes and intervals of medication, of the included trials.
• Main results: We included 99 studies in the review (58 from the original review and 41 new studies). 1. Combined regimen mifepristone/prostaglandin Mifepristone dose: high-dose (600 mg) compared to low-dose (200 mg) mifepristone probably has similar effectiveness in achieving complete abortion (RR 1.07, 95% CI 0.87 to 1.33; I2 = 0%; 4 RCTs, 3494 women; moderate-certainty evidence). Prostaglandin dose: 800 µg misoprostol probably reduces abortion failure compared to 400 µg (RR 0.63, 95% CI 0.51 to 0.78; I2= 0%; 3 RCTs, 4424 women; moderate-certainty evidence). Prostaglandin timing: misoprostol administered on day one probably achieves more success on complete abortion than on day three (RR 1.94, 95% CI 1.05 to 3.58; 1489 women; 1 RCT; moderate-certainty evidence). Administration strategy: there may be no difference in failure of complete abortion with self-administration at home compared with hospital administration (RR 1.63, 95% CI 0.68 to 3.94; I2 = 84%; 2263 women; 4 RCTs; low-certainty evidence), but failure may be higher when administered by nurses in hospital compared to by doctors in hospital (RR 2.69, 95% CI 1.39 to 5.22; I2 = 66%; 3 RCTs, 3056 women; low-certainty evidence). Administration route: oral misoprostol probably leads to more failures than the vaginal route (RR 2.38, 95% CI 1.46 to 3.87; I2 = 39%; 3 RCTs, 1704 women; moderate-certainty evidence) and may be associated with more frequent side effects such as nausea (RR 1.14, 95% CI 1.03 to 1.26; I2 = 0%; 2 RCTs, 1380 women; low-certainty evidence) and diarrhoea (RR 1.80 95% CI 1.49 to 2.17; I2 = 0%; 2 RCTs, 1379 women). Compared with the vaginal route, complete abortion failure is probably lower with sublingual (RR 0.68, 95% CI 0.22 to 2.11; I2 = 59%; 2 RCTs, 3229 women; moderate-certainty evidence) and may be lower with buccal administration (RR 0.71, 95% CI 0.34 to 1.46; I2 = 0%; 2 RCTs, 479 women; low-certainty evidence), but sublingual or buccal routes may lead to more side effects. Women may experience more vomiting with sublingual compared to buccal administration (RR 1.33, 95% CI 1.01 to 1.77; low-certainty evidence). 2. Mifepristone alone versus combined regimen The efficacy of mifepristone alone in achieving complete abortion compared to combined mifepristone/prostaglandin up to 12 weeks is unclear (RR of failure 3.25, 95% CI 0.81 to 13.09; I2 = 83%; 3 RCTs, 273 women; very low-certainty evidence). 3. Prostaglandin alone versus combined regimen Nineteen studies compared prostaglandin alone to a combined regimen (prostaglandin combined with mifepristone, letrozole, estradiol valerate, tamoxifen, or methotrexate). Compared to any of the combination regimens, misoprostol alone may increase the risk for failure to achieve complete abortion (RR of failure 2.39, 95% CI 1.89 to 3.02; I2 = 64%; 18 RCTs, 3471 women; low-certainty evidence), and with more diarrhoea. 4. Prostaglandin alone (route of administration) Oral misoprostol alone may lead to more failures in complete abortion than the vaginal route (RR 3.68, 95% CI 1.56 to 8.71, 2 RCTs, 216 women; low-certainty evidence). Failure to achieve complete abortion may be slightly reduced with sublingual compared with vaginal (RR 0.69, 95% CI 0.37 to 1.28; I2 = 87%; 5 RCTs, 2705 women; low-certainty evidence) and oral administration (RR 0.58, 95% CI 0.11 to 2.99; I2 = 66%; 2 RCTs, 173 women). Failure to achieve complete abortion may be similar or slightly higher with sublingual administration compared to buccal administration (RR 1.11, 95% CI 0.71 to 1.74; 1 study, 401 women).
• TelAbortion reports that of the 611 completed abortions documented through April 22, most were accomplished with only the pills and without complications. In 26 cases, aspiration was performed to finish the termination.
• Vaginal misoprostol administration was routinely used in the United States until reports of severe infection with Clostridium sordellii after medical abortion surfaced, prompting a reevaluation of vaginal misoprostol and a search for alternative routes of misoprostol administration. Although the use of vaginal misoprostol was ultimately not the cause of these infections, continued safety evaluations from Planned Parenthood Federation of America showed that severe infection, albeit a rare complication, decreased after changing to a buccal misoprostol regimen in addition to screening for sexually transmitted infections or providing routine preventive antibiotic coverage as part of the medical abortion.
• Despite the presence of data supporting buccal misoprostol in medical abortion, there are still gaps in the literature, specifically with use 24 hours after mifepristone. Based on the available literature, the overall efficacy of regimens with a 24-hour interval between mifepristone and buccal misoprostol is significantly lower than those with a 24- to 48-hourinterval (94.2% compared with 98.1%). Our ability to fully understand if buccal misoprostol is more effective with a dosing interval closer to 48 hours is limited by the relatively small number of women in protocols with a 24-hour dosing as compared with a 24- to 48-hour dosing interval. Moreover, published trials only include outcomes by gestational age in 129 and 49 patients between 50–56 and 57–63 days of gestation, respectively. There is also a paucity of data on the actual time interval at which women actually administer misoprostol when instructed to use buccal misoprostol in a 24- to 48-hour window after mifepristone. Only one study reported the actual time elapsed between mifepristone and buccal misoprostol dosing; the median time interval was 47–48 hours.

... Ficaia (talk) 17:28, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

Any number can be countless when you're bad at math.
Also, if you want an even more boring page about abortion that consists of nothing but redundancies and slight differences, than look no further than Definitions of abortion. Which dictionary we should we be using is the highpoint of squabbling. I made Christianity and abortion first because I knew people like you are hesitant to try and edit the words of church leaders lest you present yourself as being better at communicating the divine word than they are. Go ahead and edit the rants of church leaders and risk incurring the wrath of their followers, I dare you. Tell us which Christian denominations you think are better at communicating than the others and drop the pan-Christianity act. CensoredScribe (talk) 17:34, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

I just want quality and discrimination. There must be some kind of aesthetic or rhetorical interest in the words themselves. "Unusual" or "interesting" is not good enough.

And by the way, I'm an atheist. The Bible is no different to the Iliad in my eyes. But if you want to fight POV-pushing, go after the endless diatribes of "Muslims bad! Muslims killed Indians! We deserved to burn down their temple [mosque] and steal the land!" -- nauseating, and pumped into dozens of often unrelated articles. No wonder Google buries us in the search results. Ficaia (talk) 17:49, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

So you do believe in Neanderthals! That's not actually a requirement for anyone to edit here, but it makes me less likely to try to intentionally insult you, so I'm glad we addressed that.
I have noticed the "Muslims bad!" pages as well, pretty much all of the international relations pages between X and Y (or Y and X) groups are places to get rid of quotes that make one or both groups look bad, I fully expect Japanese-American relations in the 1940s to be where most of the World War II page's quotes about the conflict in the Pacific theatre to end up eventually, and for most of Japan's page to be about all the cool anime they make. It would be in keeping with their exceptionally poor-quality 20th century history textbooks and what the average Wikiquote user considers important, which is entertainment. The more complex the title the less likely anyone is going to be to ever go looking for it, sometimes more detail is not more helpful.
I have a hard time with the abortion pages because I find them all so very boring, even when I thought of it was bioethically equivalent to receiving an additional head in a transplant, or that the unborn were conscious and screamed as much as Evangelion pilots, it was still tremendously dull to me, like reading sports statistics. CensoredScribe (talk) 20:29, 27 November 2024 (UTC)

If you nominate articles for VFD that have no corresponding Wikipedia page, or which sound like subjects so arbitrarily and complexly worded that no one is ever going to find them without multiple search attempts, I'll support you with my vote for their deletion, not that it is going to speed the VFD process up by much, it will still take months. Considering there's still hundreds of Wikipedia pages about abortion that none of us has even attempted to go through, for the foreseeable future I'll be busy providing the rough material for more nuanced editors to create acceptable versions for the various, and often poorly distinguished, abortion pages. I would like to see what you do with some of these quotes in terms of editing, as well as to see you add quotations from scientific journals, and I disagree with your geographic categorizations for quotations, but you seem well read and quite competent when it comes to your additions of notable historical quotations: it's the modern stuff I'm worried about. I'm not sure about your ability to transfer vast amounts of material, but good writing is about more than volume and speed and good editors are usually the unsung heroes (or in the case of film, typically heroines) responsible for the most popular works of modern fiction. Feel free to let me know about any pages you think are problematic, whether I made them or not; why Google doesn't like us but promotes Wikipedia to the top page has always struck me as odd, because I have the feeling Wikiquote is also used for training AI. CensoredScribe (talk) 23:06, 27 November 2024 (UTC)