Wikiquote:Village pump archive 49

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YouTube comment added as quote by WQ admin

Hey there folks, now I'm not a Wikiquote editor, I've stumbled upon this completely by accident, I don't have any idea about the ins and outs of this project, I'm a couple of months late, and I'm not much for internet drama, plenty of that at our local wiki, so feel free to tell me to buzz off if I'm way off base here. But I'm pretty sure basic wiki project rules and Wikiquote:Wikiquote and whatever still apply.

One of your current administrators (!?!), User:Illegitimate Barrister, has seen fit to add a YouTube comment to three pages on here about a year ago and then again in January this year, even rendering the user handle TheDreadBaron123something as "T. D. Baron" in the attribution. Here [1], here [2], and [3]. As I said, I got basically zero clue as to how you do things here, but what the hell. --CCCVCCCC (talk) 18:12, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

"T. D. Baron". Lol. Well, at least Illegitimate Barrister apparently recognizes that "TheDreadBaron71" doesn't sound very authoritative, or even credible. Not that that stopped him from linking to the nonexistent "TheDreadBaron71" Wikipedia page (a hallmark of his). To me it's obvious that all the articles Illegitimate Barrister has ever touched will need to be reviewed – just keep in mind, he has already made over 35,000 edits... any volunteers? ~ DanielTom (talk) 23:02, 6 August 2016 (UTC) P.S. Again, silver lining: if that abbreviation indeed shows Illegitimate Barrister recognizes that what he did was wrong (and I believe he is intelligent enough to understand why those additions are inappropriate by any standard), he can go back to those articles he heavily edited and remove his objectionable additions himself on his own; that would be ideal. ~ DanielTom (talk) 23:38, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

I posted this at the Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard as well – and added a dozen more examples. That's just unbelievable. --CCCVCCCC (talk) 02:30, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

I'm glad CCCVCCCC has raised this issue. I also noticed that User:Illegitimate Barrister has been making edits that seem to be motivated more by a political agenda than by the intention of creating a high quality Wikiquote website. This includes quotes from non-notable and marginally notable sources. It includes quotes on theme pages that are marginally relevant to the theme.

DanielTom has raised this issue with Illegitimate Barrister before. Illegitimate Barrister responded by merely deleting the attempt to begin a discussion. This seems to me contrary to the spirit of resolving disagreements by open and civil discussion ~ Peter1c (talk) 16:07, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

• As noted at WQ:AN, I have created a list of pages with more than passing edits by User:Illegitimate Barrister at Wikiquote:Administrators' noticeboard/Illegitimate Barrister check. We can go through this as time allows and remove anything inappropriate. Cheers! BD2412 T 12:59, 8 August 2016 (UTC)

French

I'm not sure if French and French people really need to be separated since the difference doesn't seem to be so great. I noticed the problem because I don't know how to connect them on Wikidata, since both seem to relate to the same page on en.WP -> w:French people. --Superchilum (talk) 08:35, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

anyone? --Superchilum (talk) 11:15, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Maybe we can turn the page French into a redirect, and move its first quote to France, and the last two to French people. (The second one is already in Propaganda.) ~ DanielTom (talk) 11:58, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Or turn it into a disambiguation page, with links to relevant pages (such as France, French people, maybe even French proverbs, etc.). ~ DanielTom (talk) 12:07, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Y merged. I combined the two articles about the peoples of France at French people, without prejudice to further refinements concerning which quotes pertain to the peoples and which to the country, France. ~ Ningauble (talk) 12:26, 14 August 2016 (UTC)

Save/Publish

The Editing team is planning to change the name of the “Save page” button to “Publish page” and “Publish changes”. “Publish page” will be used when you create a new page. “Publish changes” will be used when you change an existing page. The names will be consistent in all editing environments.[4][5]

This change will probably happen during the week of 30 August 2016. The change will be announced in Tech News when it happens.

If you are fluent in a language other than English, please check the status of translations at translatewiki.net for “Publish page” and “Publish changes”.

The main reason for this change is to avoid confusion for new editors. Repeated user research studies with new editors have shown that some new editors believed that “Save page” would save a private copy of a new page in their accounts, rather than permanently publishing their changes on the web. It is important for this part of the user interface to be clear, since it is difficult to remove public information after it is published. We believe that the confusion caused by the “Save page” button increases the workload for experienced editors, who have to clean up the information that people unintentionally disclose, and report it to the functionaries and stewards to suppress it. Clarifying what the button does will reduce this problem.

Beyond that, the goal is to make all the wikis and languages more consistent, and some wikis made this change many years ago. The Legal team at the Wikimedia Foundation supports this change. Making the edit interface easier to understand will make it easier to handle licensing and privacy questions that may arise.

Any help pages or other basic documentation about how to edit pages will also need to be updated, on-wiki and elsewhere. On wiki pages, you can use the wikitext codes {{int:Publishpage}} and {{int:Publishchanges}} to display the new labels in the user's preferred language. For the language settings in your account preferences, these wikitext codes produce “Publish page” and “Publish changes”.

Please share this news with community members who teach new editors and with others who may be interested.

Whatamidoing (WMF) (talk) 18:02, 9 August 2016 (UTC)

How often are wikiquote changes recognized by google or other search engines?

I'm new and have made some changes, additions and new pages. But when I go to search the content on google, it isn't coming up. I searched with and without quotes, and still nothing. Anyone have any information on this? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 2602:306:3790:df40:e09f:d13c:87b:9cf8 (talk) 04:14, 15 August 2016

I don't think Google and other search providers disclose this kind of information about their operations. They update their data as often as they think is necessary for their business to prosper. ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:45, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Requested move

Hi folks, I'm wondering if the English Wikiquote has a page equivalent to Wikipedia's requested moves page. Specifically, I'm hoping to request that John Oliver (comedian) be moved over the redirect John Oliver as disambiguation doesn't appear to be required (unless it is done this way for a reason I'm not aware of as a non-regular at Wikiquote). Cheers, Graham11 (talk) 05:03, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Y Done because (1) to match recently moved Wikipedia title, and (2) Wikiquote has no other John Olivers. Re. the procedural question, the Village Pump is a fine place to make this sort of request. Wikiquote is a small project without a lot of special purpose pages for requesting assistance. ~ Ningauble (talk) 13:30, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Thanks very much, Ningauble! Graham11 (talk) 03:33, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

Quote listed in two places

The quote "I must follow them, for I am their leader" is listed under Leadership#L and under Alexandre Auguste Ledru-Rollin with different citation information in each place. Probably all of it is true, but it needs to be merged or linked. I do not know how this is done on Wikiquote. Perhaps someone else can do this. Thanks. JonH (talk) 11:22, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

@JonH: It's not a problem to have a quotation in more than one place (although more than five or six probably would be). This is something that could be fixed with a m:Semantic Wikiquote but we are nowhere near there yet. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 14:05, 17 August 2016 (UTC)

Gore Vidal, conspiracy analyst + Mark Twain

"Don't be a conspiracy theorist, be a conspiracy analyst (or conspiracy realist)." is frequently quoted by Lionel (radio personality) and attributed to Gore Vidal. I hope the proper attribution can be found regardless of whether Lionel is correct or not. —This unsigned comment is by JasonCarswell (talk • contribs) .

Vidal said "I'm not a conspiracy theorist - I'm a conspiracy analyst" in 2007. ~ DanielTom (talk) 09:19, 18 August 2016 (UTC)

I added one but now have two more alleged quotes for Gore Vidal:

• "There will come a day where it is an article of faith to be an American to say that there are no conspiracy theories." ~ Gore Vidal
• "Conspiracy theory has become a code word for the unspeakable truth." ~ Gore Vidal

—This unsigned comment is by JasonCarswell (talk • contribs) .

They are Vidal's, slightly altered. First quote: "Post-9/11, the American media were filled with pre-emptory denunciations of unpatriotic 'conspiracy theorists', who not only are always with us but are usually easy for the media to discredit since it is an article of faith that there are no conspiracies in American life." Second one: "Apparently, 'conspiracy stuff' is now shorthand for unspeakable truth." Both quotes are from "The Enemy Within", The Observer (London), 27 October 2002. ~ DanielTom (talk) 10:27, 26 August 2016 (UTC)

Thank you! ~ JasonCarswell (talk) 07:04, 31 August 2016 (UTC)

These are used here:

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_(radio_personality)#The_Lionel_argot_and_assorted_miscellany

Can someone help source this?:

• "Give a man a reputation as an early riser and he can sleep till noon." ~ Mark Twain

Thank you! ~ JasonCarswell (talk) 23:27, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

"He that hath once got the fame of an early riser, may sleep till noon." —James Howell, Epistolae Ho-Elianae (see this 1655 edition). ~ DanielTom (talk) 23:55, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

Section References

Dispute resolution - Ecclesiastes

Kalki and I, IOHANNVSVERVS, are in an edit dispute at the page Ecclesiastes.

I object to this edit which adds many irrelevant images and significantly worsens the page overall in my opinion. There are likely some valuable additions in this edit, but the bad so outweighs the good that I believe the time and effort it would take to sort through and correct the errors is too great to be reasonable.

The dispute rests on the following comparison: Kalki's edition vs IOHANNVSVERVS'

Thanks to all,
IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 19:09, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

IOHANNVSVERVS has the bad habit of deleting sourced quotations for no reason (or, at best, no explicitly stated reason). His version now has:

• "Anyone who is among the living has hope--even a live dog is better off than a dead lion!" and
• "For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all".

This pales in comparison to the KJV translation (which was featured in Kalki's version, but in IOHANNVSVERVS's is nowhere to be found):

• "For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing".

Kalki restored this and other translations, while retaining IOHANNVSVERVS's preferred versions. IOHANNVSVERVS needs to be warned: "Quotes should never be removed without a comment in the edit summary, and should almost always be moved to the Talk page with a note that they were removed from the article, giving full reasoning. If it is a misattribution, the quote should not be removed, instead moving to a "Misattributed" section, where explanation of the misattribution can be made in a subbullet. Thanks." ~ DanielTom (talk) 19:44, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Seeing the unexplained removal of mass quantities of quotations (except by meaningless and uncivil reference to an "editspree"), IOHANNVSVERVS should also be warned about WP:SUMMARYNO. ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:06, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Bolding, again

To the point. Bolding passages serves gross distortion. I have skimmed past discussions on the subject. The arguments amounted to 'it's established practice' and 'all quotations are selective and therefore emphasis in the first place, therefore, emphasis is unavoidable'. As for the former, irrelevant. As for the latter, might be true, but we ought to minimize it where possible.

There is glaring anti-intellectual bias with respect to bolding. I've observed it in many articles, but the direct stimulus to make this section is the Feynman page. Basically every bolded passage is a thoroughly dishonest highlight of phrases which can be construed as 'science isn't everything', 'truth isn't achievable', 'there are more important things than learning'. It does the man's character gross injustice. One of the side illustrations had a religious symbol attached ffs. Wikiquote is basically overtaken by people trying to give physicists, mathematicians, et c. an ecumenic 'science and religion are complementary' spin. You have clearly noticed that yourself.

This has been putting me off Wikiquote for years, and if bolding isn't prohibited and undone by a bot -- which it isn't going to be -- then I'm no longer going to use it. User:83.6.26.139

Bolding is useful to highlight and draw attention to the most famous quotes in long pages. When it is used in a "thoroughly dishonest" manner, it can (and should) be removed. WQ:IMAGE also allows you to remove images that you believe to be inappropriate. Be bold (no pun intended). ~ DanielTom (talk) 19:00, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Ha, well, yes, but I'm hoping for a general policy discussion. Bolding does more harm through its potential to misrepresent the author than it helps through its potential to highlight supposedly crucial sub-passages. If you're looking for a confirmation or source or details on a particular quote, literally every browser has a fast search function. And if you're just visiting, then why even visit a quote collection if you're not actually going to read them in full? We're not forcing anyone to read Wikiquote; there is no hurry, no obligation for us to spoonfeed people the important bits. And there is no counterargument to that that if so, then we should refer people to actual books for complete context, since those only are available in libraries or bookstores. Bolding does more harm than good. Wikiquote is not about subjective selections, it's about objective inclusion of as much context as possible. The subjectivity of inclusion of quotes is a sad necessity coming from author rights (we just can't quote entire works), not a justification of *further* gratuituous subjectification. User:83.6.26.139

I also want it on record that I did not, and do not, sign my posts with my IP. An overeager user did that. There is no reason for IP to be visible beyond the page history. I sign my posts with ~~~~, which is sufficient. User:83.6.26.139

I want this topic to be a subject of a formal consideration such as (but not necessarily) a vote. User:83.6.26.139

@83.6.26.139: Please sign your posts normally so someone knows who is writing. "Signing" with ~~~~ doesn't signify anything. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:17, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Per DanielTom's point above, bolding should only be used "to highlight and draw attention to the most famous quotes in long pages". There should be some empirical means of determining which quotes or portions of long quotes are the most famous. BD2412 T 14:47, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

As we are all aware, this has been discussed several times and, although there is general acknowledgement that boldface can be misused, there is no consensus to ban it.

I seldom use it myself (e.g. this example with reason in edit summary), and remove it more often than I add it (e.g. these examples with reasons in edit summaries). Personally, I believe boldface should be used seldom, for sound reason in exceptional circumstances.

Theoretically, we could develop guidelines on when boldface is and is not appropriate, beginning along the lines BD2412 suggests. As a practical matter, much as I would like to see more empirical objectivity around here, I suspect there are subjective aspects that are difficult to formalize. Given that the present situation is pretty awful, and unlike any other compendium of quotations, it may be worth a try. ~ Ningauble (talk) 15:33, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

Bold passages are for me far too reminiscent of a library book with passages highlighted by a previous borrower. When presented with a text, a reader must be free to decide for herself which passages are most important. We editors are already tasked with deciding which passages belong and which do not. This seems to me like responsibility enough. Adding yet more judgments about the relative importance of text, in my opinion, unduly exaggerates the voice of the collector, to the detriment of the autonomy of the reader. ~ Peter1c (talk) 23:18, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

koavf, I do exactly what I'm told to do: sign my posts with four tildes. BD2412, Ningauble, Peter1c, I agree completely. Just Google testing is probably inadequate to determine the most popular quotes, so the only hope would be some sort of biblographical API per which we could determine the, for instance, top 2 % quotes most cited in literature. (Or perhaps a criterion could be, say, being mentioned in at least three different anthologies.) That said, while it's still best to drop bolding completely, a transitory phase could be conditional styling:

body.show-popular span.popular { font-weight: bold; }

And a button, 'Highlight the quotes the community has subjectively considered most popular.', triggering the body style. Also, perhaps the signifier could be something less invasive in the first place, like a subtle icon at the margin. User:83.24.124.109

For a quick and dirty example, consider <--- . User:83.24.124.109

I apologize for still posting here, but I owe my fellow editors an explanation. Namely, I will not be able to reply to their possible replies to my points re. bolding above (rationales, visual realizations, criteria for popularity, bots), owing to Koavf's continued disruption of my points. The exact reason for this has been concealed in the 'off-topic' section above. Again, my apologies. ~~~~—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 178.43.21.111 (talk) 19:55, 9 September 2016

(Also, here is a copy of a comment I made in it: 'Also, I'm thinking of approximate automatization of their removal by a bot, but I can't really think of a criterion other than 'longer than (say) three words'. Any ideas? Perhaps trailing punctuation (if the bolding ends with a colon, it's not likely to be prose)? The thing to discount is e. g. titles of list items. Perhaps 'if the bolding opens more than three subsequent lines, discount it'?') ~~~~—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 178.43.21.111 (talk) 20:11, 9 September 2016

I'm afraid that this would remove legitimate selections for bolding as readily as poor choices. This may be better accomplished as a manual task. However, we can probably get a bot-generated list of suspect pages to check. BD2412 T 22:52, 9 September 2016 (UTC)

It is very premature to discuss ways automate doing this before there is clear consensus on a guideline for what is to be done. ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:27, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

Alphabetic TOC templates with letters combined into groups vs. separate letters

Hello fellow Wikiquote editors. When alphabetic table of contents templates are used on theme pages, I wanted to offer some arguments for using templates that include separate TOC entries for each letter of the alphabet, as opposed to headings that combine letters into groups ("A-F", etc.). The reasons I offer are:

1. I find far more alphabetization errors in theme pages that use combined alphabetic TOC entries than in pages that use separate TOC headings for individual letters.
2. When the page grows, the combined TOC headings will have to be replaced with separate headings for each letter to maintain reasonable section sizes.
3. On theme pages that have alphabetic TOC headings, far more pages currently have separate entries for each letter than have combined entries. For the sake of uniformity and consistency, it may be better to adopt the more common practice.

Admittedly these are not very persuasive arguments, really just a statement of preference, but I wanted to express them nonetheless. ~ Peter1c (talk) 23:49, 8 September 2016 (UTC)

My preference would also be to deprecate these letter range indexes. If a page is so long that an alphabetical index is needful, then index by individual letters. If not, then do not index it. I have many times removed indexes and their associated section headings form articles that had only a handful of quotes, and am at a loss to understand why anyone would want to clutter the page with such superfluous markup. ~ Ningauble (talk) 15:06, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

I agree with avoiding the clutter, but isn't that a reason, on pages with large numbers of quotes, to group together letters that account for only a small proportion of the quotes? BD2412 T 21:00, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

The problem with the "TOC template", as I see it, is that it often ends up linking to sections that don't actually exist. (See Jargon for an example.) ~ DanielTom (talk) 21:37, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

The Jargon article, with less than a dozen quotes at present[6], is a fine example of a page that needs no index. The entire article fills less than two screenfuls, so there is no need for a navigation tool to jump around the page. ~ Ningauble (talk) 15:58, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

Love, on the other hand, is a page that clearly does need some kind of navigational tool - but even that page has an empty section "Q" to which someone might jump, to find nothing. I would get rid of the empty section, or merge it into a "P-Q" or the like. BD2412 T 18:36, 11 September 2016 (UTC)

The letter range index is as simple version of the TOC template. The objections made here seem marginal, while I think the problem with the "TOC template" not linking is a major flaw (for which a solution would be nice). An advantage of the letter range index is, that it can be implemented at once in a complete form, and gives in general (I think) a better balance. A question remains how long an article should be before any navigation template could/should be added? In (featured) Wikipedia articles sections seem no longer that one standard screen long, and this could be a guideline for Wikiquote as well. -- Mdd (talk) 13:01, 11 October 2016 (UTC)

Main Page QOTD image use

balance

Continuation of this discussion:

"Now we're seeing an image to the right. The person putting up the QOTD seems hell-bent on ensuring we need some very specific language. This is ridiculous." TreeRol (talk) 02:32, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

For a year now Wikiquote's Main Page has had an image in the "New Pages" section, on the right side of the screen. But Kalki (who likes to rebel against "authoritarian" rules) very often chooses to place the QOTD image to the right as well. Am I wrong in thinking that common sense and a basic understanding of aesthetics both require that the QOTD image appear to the left of the QOTD, for balance? ~ DanielTom (talk) 01:52, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

I stand by my previous comment, although I admit that I was so relieved to see the (significant) progress we made that I didn't feel the need to argue it further. That said, I believe we agreed it would be on the left, and so it should be on the left.TreeRol (talk) 20:02, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

RevisionSlider

From September 13th on, RevisionSlider will be available as a beta feature in your wiki. The RevisionSlider adds a slider view to the diff page, so that you can easily move between revisions. The feature fulfills a wish from the German Community’s Technical Wishlist. Everyone is invited to test the feature and we hope that it will serve you well in your work!

Birgit Müller (WMDE) 14:56, 12 September 2016 (UTC)

Open call for Project Grants

Greetings! The Project Grants program is accepting proposals from September 12 to October 11 to fund new tools, research, offline outreach (including editathon series, workshops, etc), online organizing (including contests), and other experiments that enhance the work of Wikimedia volunteers. Project Grants can support you and your team’s project development time in addition to project expenses such as materials, travel, and rental space.

• Submit a grant request or draft your proposal in IdeaLab
• Get help with your proposal in an upcoming Hangout session
• Learn from examples of completed Individual Engagement Grants or Project and Event Grants

Also accepting candidates to join the Project Grants Committee through October 1.

With thanks, I JethroBT (WMF) (talk) 14:49, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

1960 quote

I would like to propose that we change the 1960 placeholder to an actual page with the following quote:

• By 1960, we were in the midst of the most productive and most explosive era in the development of mathematical thought in human history.
  • Donal O'Shea (30 October 2008). The Poincaré Conjecture: In Search of the Shape of the Universe. Penguin Books Limited. p. 277. ISBN 978-0-14-190034-6. 

Thoughts folks? Solomon7968 (talk) 05:46, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

I have no objection to using such pages for quotes about the years, and about the numbers designated also, as I expect significantly notable quotes relating to either will probably be rather scarce for most of them — and I believe I have used at least one or two pages in such ways myself, including one for 23 (which might be used as a model for further pages of this type). I believe such is a likely development on many more eventually, but there have been no concerted efforts to use them in this way, and I doubt if there will soon be such, though creating a cataloging tag of the ones so used would probably be appropriate. ~ ♞☤☮♌Kalki·†·⚓⊙☳☶⚡ 14:31, 27 September 2016 (UTC) + tweaks

I would suggest something like a header such as this, largely based on the Wikipedia one for the year, for now:

1960 was a leap year starting on Friday (dominical letter CB) of the Gregorian calendar, the 1960th year of the Common Era (CE) and Anno Domini (AD) designations, the 960th year of the 2nd millennium, the 60th year of the 20th century, and the 1st year of the 1960s decade. It is also known as the "Year of Africa" because of major events—particularly the independence of seventeen African nations—that focused global attention on the continent and intensified feelings of Pan-Africanism.

Further work with some Wikipedia templates might make more extensive use of these pages here more convenient, but I doubt if it would be a high priority for many people, any time soon. ~ ♞☤☮♌Kalki·†·⚓⊙☳☶⚡ 14:44, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

I am not sure what we will ever do with these "year placeholder" pages, but I don't think this quote is it. The pertinence of being "in the midst of" to the putative topic is rather weak – it is not like the author is indicating a turning point or milestone in that year. Nor is there any evident Quotability in this remark, which does not appear to have been quoted anywhere. ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:48, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

I would like to quote edicts of governments about the year in a sorting table, but please talk at Wikiquote talk:Guide to layout#Sorting of quotes before I actually start any sorting tables.--Jusjih (talk) 00:47, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Grants to improve your project

Greetings! The Project Grants program is currently accepting proposals for funding. There is just over a week left to submit before the October 11 deadline. If you have ideas for software, offline outreach, research, online community organizing, or other projects that enhance the work of Wikimedia volunteers, start your proposal today! Please encourage others who have great ideas to apply as well. Support is available if you want help turning your idea into a grant request.

• Submit a grant request
• Get help: In IdeaLab or an upcoming Hangout session
• Learn from examples of completed Individual Engagement Grants or Project and Event Grants

I JethroBT (WMF) (talk) 19:52, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Dante Alighieri admiring 16 religions all at once

• 
  original image
• 
  Kalki's spin

It is no secret that Kalki devotes much of his time and energy to promoting Universalism (as any sampling of his QOTD selections will show). Before the implementation of the Image use policy, hundreds of Wikiquote pages were (and still are) polluted with irrelevant, oftentimes misleading, religious imagery. And I think it's fair to say that the many complaints about image use that Wikiquote has received over the years have been almost entirely due to Kalki. While I have great admiration for Kalki (as an extremely well-read man, and a "founding father" of Wikiquote), I am disturbed by his misleading usage of religious imagery that sometimes directly contradicts both the spirit and the letter of the quotes, or the author's whole life's work. I have come to the conclusion that to Kalki, it doesn't matter what the author thinks and says – what matters is what Kalki thinks. His POV-pushing goes to such lengths that he puts together his own images (usually bad, infantile combinations of others available on Commons) and posts them all over Wikiquote. This (pictured) is a prime example. "Dante and Beatrice gaze upon the highest Heaven" (used in today's QOTD, in Universalism, and in many other Wikiquote pages). I don't know if Kalki has ever bothered to read the Divine Comedy, but he certainly must know that Dante was a Christian. (In fact, Dante made a point of showing Muhammad cut in half in his Hell.) Of course this didn't stop Kalki from adding to the illustration of Dante's Heaven a bunch of intrusive symbols representing different religions, because again what matters to him is not what Dante believed in, but what Kalki believes in – that it goes directly against Dante's view and distorts the original illustration is not even a minor concern for him. He's trying to teach Wikiquote readers the truth of Universalism, and will not let honesty and historical integrity get in the way. ~ DanielTom (talk) 02:51, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

I agree. As discussed just over a year ago at Wikiquote:Village pump archive 45#Exhibiting user artworks on Wikiquote Main Page, this is highly inappropriate. Seeing that this is a persistent, ongoing problem with one user who is well aware that the community disapproves, it may be appropriate to consider imposing sanctions in the form of an editing restriction to prohibit this user from posting any self-generated images on Wikiquote. ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:24, 5 October 2016 (UTC)

Perhaps a good idea to require all selfmade images on Wikiquote be discussed and approved by the community before inclusion. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 02:50, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Agree I respect that Kalki is very active here and I don't know that I disagree with his perspective but I don't feel like images like the one above add anything to this quotation bank other than confusion. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 02:36, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

When we have excellent, high-quality photographs of many of the greatest artworks of history available on Wikimedia Commons, why are we still using amateur, non-notable images? I would suggest we apply the same standard of notability for images that we apply for all other content. ~ Peter1c (talk) 06:46, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

• I would support such a limitation with respect to artwork other than depictions of the actual article subjects for articles on people, which can be harder to come by. BD2412 T 16:29, 7 October 2016 (UTC)

• Another day, another image created by Kalki featured on Wikiquote's Main Page. Kalki sure loves his rainbows. ~ DanielTom (talk) 00:44, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
• Yet again, today's Quote of the day/November 16 features user-generated artwork (presumably a different user) of no note and little relevance. I think this is awful, and has no place on Wikiquote's Main Page or anywhere else in the project. (I also think the QOTD text is pretty lame, appearing to be chosen to function as a link farm.) I support Peter1c's suggestion to deprecate amateur, non-notable images. ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:13, 16 November 2016 (UTC)
• Also support this suggestion by Peter1c. It will make Wikiquote more appealing to users who want to contribute but are turned away by the kindergarten-art-project style of so many of its pages, even though those pages include impressively well-chosen quotations. - Macspaunday (talk) 13:55, 19 November 2016 (UTC)
• I suggest a voting system to determine if the quote image pairing is acceptable, because it's remixing the image and the text by combining them, I understand the desire to have wikiquote look visually interesting by including historical paintings and famous photographs, but the pairing of images and text is should reflect the consensus of the community seeing as there's not going to be a good way to tell if the original authors and artists would approve of the pairing. It's not like there's much else to regularly vote on from what I've seen, I've seen suggestions from 2005 to open up the quote of the day to voting or to add a featured article. CensoredScribe (talk) 17:19, 28 January 2017 (UTC)
• Noticing that the very same image appeared again on the main page 14 February 2017, I have removed it.[7] Is nothing to be done to reform these practices? ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:52, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Policy proposal for notability of images

I have added a proposal to the talk page for image use policy that attempts to define notability, taking into account BD2412's amendment:

In cases where both non-notable and notable images are available that are relevant, notable images should be used. An image is considered notable if it is a photograph of a relevant subject or an artwork created by a notable artist.

All comments and suggestions for improvement are gratefully appreciated. ~ Peter1c (talk) 20:01, 19 November 2016 (UTC)

I think that if we say that notable images are preferred over non-notable images, we don't need to qualify "In cases where both non-notable and notable images are available". BD2412 T 15:38, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

→ Please discuss this proposal at Wikiquote talk:Image use policy#Proposal to add section Notability. ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:22, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

I'm concerned how this might affect the inclusion of still frames from [public domain films]. What would determine what the most notable scene from 1932's a A Farewell to Arms be, trailers tends not to reveal too much but are widely viewed and production stills widely commented on in the press. CensoredScribe (talk) 17:19, 28 January 2017 (UTC)

Creative Commons 4.0

Hello! I'm writing from the Wikimedia Foundation to invite you to give your feedback on a proposed move from CC BY-SA 3.0 to a CC BY-SA 4.0 license across all Wikimedia projects. The consultation will run from October 5 to November 8, and we hope to receive a wide range of viewpoints and opinions. Please, if you are interested, take part in the discussion on Meta-Wiki.

Apologies that this message is only in English. This message can be read and translated in more languages here. Joe Sutherland (talk) 01:34, 6 October 2016 (UTC)

Linking

Hello. I'm a long-established editor on Wikipedia, but I've used WQ only occasionally. I was going through the article on Wilhelm Röntgen and was puzzled by the links to everyday terms like start, now, and appeared. My first inclination was to remove those and only leave links to either other quoted subjects (like William Crookes) or WP links to non-everyday terms like "Crookes tube", but I thought I'd better double-check first. Is that standard practice? There are other articles with similar types of links, but also ones more in keeping with what I'll call "standard" levels of linking on WP. TBH, I find them distracting, but that could well be just because (coming from WP) I would assume they were cryptic links. Are people reading quotes on Röntgen really served by linking to a page of quotes about appearance? Or vice versa. I wouldn't think so, but would like to discuss it. Matt Deres (talk) 19:24, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Hypertext makes a virtue out of lack of organization, allowing ideas and thoughts to be juxtaposed at will. [...] The advent of hypertext is apt to make writing much more difficult, not easier. Good writing, that is. — Donald Norman, The Design of Everyday Things

I would not call it "standard" practice (many fine articles do not have these links), but it is tolerated. This has been discussed before without reaching any consensus on when it is and is not appropriate to link words in a quote. I think greater restraint would be better, but that's just my opinion. I will have more to say if the community wants to take the matter up again. ~ Ningauble (talk) 19:52, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

The criterion I use for determining if a link is relevant is:

A link is relevant if the reader might reasonably be supposed to be prompted by the quotation to seek information from the linked article.

Consider this (actual) example:

* The more one [[suffers]], the more, I [[believe]], has one a [[sense]] for the [[Comedy|comic]].

** [[Kierkegaard]]

I would argue that the link to [[belief]] here is no more relevant than linking to [[Being]] for every use of the word "is."

Specific cases will fall somewhere on a spectrum of relevance, which will inevitably be subjective, but, frankly, one gets the impression that the purpose of some of these links is more to publicize certain pet projects than to provide relevant resources for the reader. ~ Peter1c (talk) 01:25, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

• I have commented on this before. I essentially agree with Peter1c. ~ DanielTom (talk) 13:07, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
• I also agree. BD2412 T 17:01, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Editing News #3—2016

Read this in another language • Subscription list for this multilingual newsletter

Did you know?

Did you know that you can easily re-arrange columns and rows in the visual editor?

Select a cell in the column or row that you want to move. Click the arrow at the start of that row or column to open the dropdown menu (shown). Choose either "Move before" or "Move after" to move the column, or "Move above" or "Move below" to move the row.

You can read and help translate the user guide, which has more information about how to use the visual editor.

Since the last newsletter, the VisualEditor Team has mainly worked on a new wikitext editor. They have also released some small features and the new map editing tool. Their workboard is available in Phabricator. You can find links to the list of work finished each week at mw:VisualEditor/Weekly triage meetings. Their current priorities are fixing bugs, releasing the 2017 wikitext editor as a beta feature, and improving language support.

Recent changes

• You can now set text as small or big.[8]
• Invisible templates have been shown as a puzzle icon. Now, the name of the invisible template is displayed next to the puzzle icon.[9] A similar feature will display the first part of hidden HTML comments.[10]
• Categories are displayed at the bottom of each page. If you click on the categories, the dialog for editing categories will open.[11]
• At many wikis, you can now add maps to pages. Go to the Insert menu and choose the "Maps" item. The Discovery department is adding more features to this area, like geoshapes. You can read more at mediawiki.org.[12]
• The "Save" button now says "Save page" when you create a page, and "Save changes" when you change an existing page.[13] In the future, the "Save page" button will say "Publish page". This will affect both the visual and wikitext editing systems. More information is available on Meta.
• Image galleries now use a visual mode for editing. You can see thumbnails of the images, add new files, remove unwanted images, rearrange the images by dragging and dropping, and add captions for each image. Use the "Options" tab to set the gallery's display mode, image sizes, and add a title for the gallery.[14]

Future changes

The visual editor will be offered to all editors at the remaining 10 "Phase 6" Wikipedias during the next month. The developers want to know whether typing in your language feels natural in the visual editor. Please post your comments and the language(s) that you tested at the feedback thread on mediawiki.org. This will affect several languages, including Thai, Burmese and Aramaic.

The team is working on a modern wikitext editor. The 2017 wikitext editor will look like the visual editor and be able to use the citoid service and other modern tools. This new editing system may become available as a Beta Feature on desktop devices in October 2016. You can read about this project in a general status update on the Wikimedia mailing list.

Let's work together

• Do you teach new editors how to use the visual editor? Did you help set up the Citoid automatic reference feature for your wiki? Have you written or imported TemplateData for your most important citation templates? Would you be willing to help new editors and small communities with the visual editor? Please sign up for the new VisualEditor Community Taskforce.

• If you aren't reading this in your preferred language, then please help us with translations! Subscribe to the Translators mailing list or contact us directly, so that we can notify you when the next issue is ready. Thank you!

—Elitre (WMF)

17:49, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Andrus Ansip and context removal

I'd like to dispute this edit, where the context I added about the quote was removed in an article about Andrus Ansip. -Mardus (talk) 17:23, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

• If you want to dispute it then you may want to offer a reason. The underlying reason I removed the extended remarks can be summarized in four words: Wikiquote is for quotes. ~ Ningauble (talk) 19:33, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

"Even Bad Decisions briefed well in Powerpoint"

I've been referring to this informally as Becker's Razor...I'm a big fan of Hanlon's Razor and Achems Razor and this speaks to me of the dangers of corporate group think combined with a technological influence of things on pretty slides that may be a really stupid course of action —This unsigned comment is by Sandsock (talk • contribs) .

@Sandsock: This is so beautiful that I may just cry. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 01:38, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

POV-pushing via quote selection?

I have very little experience with Wikiquote beyond that of a reader/user, so apologies if the answer(s) to this should be more obvious.

I had not previously given much attention to the Wikiquote page linked from the enwiki article for Khizr and Ghazala Khan (a politically charged subject), but did so today. To my dismay, it seems when a conspiracy theory didn't make it into that article, a user came here to push it. Khan was, as some who follow American politics may know, subject to a smear campaign calling him a Muslim Brotherhood agent, saying he wants to advance Sharia law in the United States, etc. It started here, an article which digs up decades-old quotes to try to support that claim. The quotes bear no relevance to Khan's notability and are found only in the conspiracy theory sites and far-right blogs that picked up that original story. The story got play in mainstream sources only to condemn or debunk it, but there it's about the claims and not these quotes.

So I'm talking about diffs like this, this, this. If you google some of those quotes you'll see what I mean.

How is this dealt with on Wikiquote? Is it something that's dealt with, or are those sorts of sites sufficient for a measure of quotability? Should I have created this on the administrators noticeboard? Thanks. --Rhododendrites (talk) 03:54, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Password reset

I apologise that this message is in English. ⧼Centralnotice-shared-help-translate⧽

We are having a problem with attackers taking over wiki accounts with privileged user rights (for example, admins, bureaucrats, oversighters, checkusers). It appears that this may be because of weak or reused passwords.

Community members are working along with members of multiple teams at the Wikimedia Foundation to address this issue.

In the meantime, we ask that everyone takes a look at the passwords they have chosen for their wiki accounts. If you know that you've chosen a weak password, or if you've chosen a password that you are using somewhere else, please change those passwords.

Select strong passwords – eight or more characters long, and containing letters, numbers, and punctuation. Joe Sutherland (talk) / MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 23:59, 13 November 2016 (UTC)

Adding to the above section (Password reset)

Please accept my apologies - that first line should read "Help with translations!". Joe Sutherland (WMF) (talk) / MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 00:11, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

No problem Joe, most participants here are able to translate from English to Quotish on the fly. ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:57, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

Touché! ;) JSutherland (WMF) (talk) 17:09, 14 November 2016 (UTC)

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." ~ misattributed to Mahatma Gandhi according to Snopes. http://www.snopes.com/first-they-ignore-you/ I apologize if it's already on Wikiquote but I did search and failed. I'd do it myself but I don't know how it would be formatted and folded into Wikiquote properly. It seems like it belongs here. I hope someone can do it justice. ~ JasonCarswell (talk) 23:35, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

It's already in Mahatma Gandhi#Misattributed. ~ DanielTom (talk) 23:50, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Still, it would be nice to figure out where this really does come from. BD2412 T 14:22, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Here we go: Address of Nicholas Klein, in Proceedings of the Biennial Convention of the Amalgamated Clothing Workers of America (1918):

And it is said in this story that thousands of people were out to see the first test of that locomotive, and of course the people all shouted, and pointed to their heads, and said the man was crazy, and they said the locomotive was out of question; it was impossible, and the crowd yelled out: "You old foggy fool! You can't do it! You can't do It!" And the same everywhere. The old man was in the (Jab, and somebody fired a pistol and the signal was given. He pulled the throttle open and the engine shot out, and in their amazement the crowd, not knowing how to answer to that argument, yelled out: "You old fool! You can't stop it! You can't stop it! You can't stop it!" (Applause.)

And my friends, in this story you have a history of this entire movement. First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. And then they attack you and want to burn you. And then they build monuments to you.

Cheers! BD2412 T 14:29, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

• JasonCarswell's question raises an interesting issue about how Wikiquote works:  We already had this information, as DanielTom notes, but it is evidently not always obvious to our readers how they can find it. Some observations about Jason's experience raise interesting questions:

1. Being aware that this is widely misattributed to Gandhi, he did not find it on the Mahatma Gandhi page. Is this because it did not seem like the logical place to look for something Gandhi did not say? Did he check the page and find it just too huge (at more than 120 kilobytes) to deal with? Are many people unaware of how to use their browser's "find in page" function?
2. He performed some search for the quote that failed. I note that using Wikiquote's search function for the opening clause in quotes yields good results that lead directly to the answer, but without quotes the result is much less helpful. Searching for the full text of the quote given above, even without quotes, gives good results, listing the Gandhi page first. Of course, this can be completely thrown off by minor variations or even a typo.
3. Our guidance at Help:Searching is not very helpful:  It is out of date (just plain wrong in several respects), and receives little traffic. Wikipedia's version is more up to date and accurate, but is quite lengthy and could be confusing to many.
4. The Wikimedia Foundation and MediaWiki volunteers have invested heavily in improving the search function in recent years, including extensive research into user experience to find out what gives the best results. However, their efforts have naturally focused on searching for relevant topics at Wikipedias, and may not be the best fit for finding quotations at Wikiquotes.

All this raises two questions in my mind:  How difficult is it really to find a quote at Wikiquote, and what should we be doing to make it easier? ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:52, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

• If you search for the key phrase, "First they ignore you", our search does return the Gandhi page, where this quote can be found with a text search. Since this Nicholas Klein does not otherwise appear to be notable, there is no other home for this quote unless we either set up a page for the quote itself (which would be against our general practice), or find a theme page appropriate for the quote. BD2412 T 17:03, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

I agree, this is the logical place for it. The question in my mind is why this logic did not work for our interlocutor, and how widespread his experience is. Perhaps JasonCarswell will share with us exactly how he performed the search that failed. ~ Ningauble (talk) 17:35, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

GREAT GOOGLY MOOGLY! I am both thrilled and saddened simultaneously. I'm thrilled you found it. I'm thrilled it stirred some fascinating discussion. I'm sad it's my fault. And I'm sad that this is a problem. However I'm thrilled to fill you in on how sad my attempt to find the quote was.

• Knowing that it wasn't by Gandhi I wouldn't look where it ought not be, not thinking it may be "misattributed" there.
• Knowing that "they" and "you" are common words I omitted them from my search.
• I typed "first ignore laugh" which failed where "first ignore" worked just now.
• Then I tried "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you" and gave up like an idiot when I would have found it under Gandhi with "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you" like just now.
• Just now, going to the Gandhi page I'm surprised there's not a corrective link directly to the Tony Benn quote or even the Tony Benn page.
• It's true, some of these pages are huuuuuge. I don't even know how you might begin to subdivide less than the date/decades/years. Tagging a quote with a random-ish number the way IMDb tags their movie titles or people might be one way, then if a certain tag comes up often it can statistically weigh more as a likely search solution compared to sooo many obscure and less referenced quotes. Naturally you might want to freely toggle these "weighted search options". Of course, even I recognize that this would be a huge new feature with a lot of problems with grey areas. And as if WikiAnything needs more rules.
• Also notable is that the search is not "intelligently" flexible enough to see the similarities and synonyms between "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." and "First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. And then they attack you and want to burn you. And then they build monuments to you."
• If I could code at all I'd consider magically interfacing wiki searches with Wiktionary synonyms but alas and again, I am an idiot.

Thank you for not ignoring me, for laughing with me, and debating, and thanks for winning and all your brobdingnagian efforts. Keep up the good fights and laughs and wins. ~ JasonCarswell (talk) 19:22, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Awl wright thin – waist of thyme. ~ Ningauble (talk) 21:16, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Help test offline Wikipedia

Hello! The Reading team at the Foundation is looking to support readers who want to take articles offline to read and share later on their phones - a use case we learned about from deep research earlier this year. We’ve built a few prototypes and are looking for people who would be interested in testing them. If you’d like to learn more and give us feedback, check out the page on Meta! Joe Sutherland (WMF) (talk) 20:08, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

The lighter side...

"Slaughtering sacred cows is the first step towards leading them to greener pastures" Seb Starcevic in the Daily Telegraph. 37.188.68.208 19:31, 30 November 2016 (UTC)

"History would be a wonderful thing, if only it were true."

For Lionel's Wikipedia article ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lionel_(radio_personality) ) I've added several quotes. He recently ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mo0CMxLbeHE ) spouted off a few:

• "History would be a wonderful thing, if only it were true." ~ Leo Tolstoy (unsourced)

As listed here: Talk:Leo Tolstoy#Unsourced

• "History is a myth that people agree to believe." ~ Napoleon

I didn't find this specifically, but I did find "What then is, generally speaking, the truth of history? A fable agreed upon." under Napoleon I of France.

• "History is written by the winners." ~ Churchhill or Von Bismark

Searching Wikiquote I found it under George Orwell#"As I Please" (1943–1947) but wonder if it's also elsewhere and/or earlier.

Churchill did say, "For my part, I consider that it will be found much better by all Parties to leave the past to history, especially as I propose to write that history." This quote may be the basis for a statement often attributed to Churchill : History will be kind to me. For I intend to write it.

Bismarck did say, "Concerning the blunders which had been made in our foreign policy public opinion is, as a rule, first enlightened when it is in a position to look back upon the history of a generation, and the Achivi qui plectuntur are not always immediately contemporary with the mistaken actions."" [I don't think the last quotation is supposed to be on there but I didn't want to delete it in ignorance.]

Can I do better? ~ JasonCarswell (talk) 09:42, 3 December 2016 (UTC)

The Oxford Dictionary of Political Quotations cites "History is almost always written by the victors [etc.]" as from Jawaharlal Nehru, The Discovery of India (1946); the passage is in the first paragraph of chapter 7, and reads (in a reprint edition): "History is almost always written by the victors and conquerors and gives their viewpoint; or, at any rate, the victors' version is given prominence and holds the field." - Macspaunday (talk) 19:54, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Thank you! ~ JasonCarswell (talk) 16:13, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Already here in Wikiquote: [15] - Macspaunday (talk) 01:46, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Although Nehru certainly popularized it, the observation that history is "written by the victors" is much older than anyone mentioned above. The earliest version I have been able to locate appeared anonymously in The Spectator 20 May 1865 (Vol 38, No. 1925, p. 552). It is already listed in Wikiquote's History article. ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:02, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

Article creation wizard discussion

Hi all,

This proposal suggests WMF to fund the writing of an article creation wizard at Wikipedia, but with enough interest it may -- or may it not? -- be expanded to write an article creation wizards framework or library for use at non-Wikipedia wikis, such as here. If desired, please join the discussion before December 12. (I've sent this message to English wikis; I ask you to deliver it to non-English wikis, if you can. Even delivering it in English there may be better than nothing.)

• What tools do we use here, now, to make article creation easier for newbies?
• What requirements do we have for a potential implementation?
• How would you like to inform the people of the article creation perks and difficulties on this wiki?
• What else needs to be considered?

Thanks. --Gryllida (talk) 03:54, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Please note:  Gryllida's description of the above linked proposal is somewhat misleading. It is not a proposal to fund the development of an article creation wizard such as already exists at Wikipedia. Rather, it proposes that the user interface steer new users to use an existing Article Wizard, and provide some information before users start a new article. ~ Ningauble (talk) 15:46, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

They're trying to control/censor the Truthers and fakers' "fake news" and counter-propaganda. ~ JasonCarswell (talk) 16:40, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

Critiques of Economics Post Global Financial Crisis 2007 (GFC)

The Queen of England asked "Why did no one see it coming" to economists at the London School of Economics. The US Congress set up a commission to investigate failure of economic theory, as evidenced by failure to predict the GFC. Many famous economists have delivered sweeping indictments. Paul Krugman: The Profession as a whole went astray because they mistook the beauty of mathematics for truth Paul Romer -- macroeconomics has been going backwards for several decades. John Cassidy in the New Yorker: After the Blowup -- Laissez-faire economists do some soul-searching-and finger-pointing. Starts the article by saying he went to U of Chicago, temple of free market thought, in search of apostates.

I am interested in collecting quotes like this in an article. But what should the title be? Is it a suitable project? Would like some advice on how to get started.

Asaduzaman (talk) 17:49, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

I would suggest using the title Financial crisis of 2007–2008 as this is a page on Wikipedia that could be linked to it. One thing to avoid however is to try to group the quotes under specific sub-topics (other attempts to do this for other pages have led to NPOV issues). Instead, merely sort the quotes by the author/speaker. ~ UDScott (talk) 18:39, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

Flak Over The Target

I have a new challenge. I searched and found nothing on Wikiquote but found a few variations on Google. Because I like Wikiquote, especially since they tightened up their verifications (which is getting me censored on Wikipedia, but that's another politically sensitive matter), and because I like contributing I'm bringing here to your attention. Again, quoting Lionel ( from 17m14s to 17m18s @ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4kXcnofHBqM ), he quoted "You only take flak when you're over the target." but didn't know who said it. Google also had these common variations: "If you're not catching flak, you're not over the target." and "You know you're over the target when you're catching flak." ~ JasonCarswell (talk) 16:13, 7 December 2016 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I want to thank everyone at Wikiquote for all your help over the last six months or so. Though it'd be nice if this quote get referenced and filed accordingly for everyone's benefit, I won't be needing this because "they" won. The "fake news" censors are disemboweling your sister Wikipedia and the w:Lionel (radio personality) article I was researching quotes for has been utterly butchered from a good article down to a stub. It’s sad that a “fanboy” like me can only write ridiculously long articles for things like Evel Knevel but not even a modest article for clever critical analysis and relevant contemporary commentary. ~ JasonCarswell (talk) 17:35, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

@JasonCarswell: How can I help? —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:32, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

@Koavf, Justin: I don't know if there's anything to help with. The rules are long, confusing and rigged and they want to crucify me, picking out my worst errors and "offenses" out of context without intent: [16] They're even going through my history of contributions, generally making some "improvements" I can't argue with, even if I was motivated to. I don't mind good editors logically minimizing my over enthusiastic bloat and "fancruft" (a word I only learned of this week) but what Ian.thomson did to Lionel's article was more than brutal censorship. I can't beat them at their own rigged game. Use whatever energy you'd offered to help me on someone else needing help. Thanks for the thought. ~ JasonCarswell (talk) 01:29, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

New way to edit wikitext

Summary: There's a new opt-in Beta Feature of a wikitext mode for the visual editor. Please go try it out.

We in the Wikimedia Foundation's Editing department are responsible for making editing better for all our editors, new and experienced alike. We've been slowly improving the visual editor based on feedback, user tests, and feature requests. However, that doesn't work for all our user needs: whether you need to edit a wikitext talk page, create a template, or fix some broken reference syntax, sometimes you need to use wikitext, and many experienced editors prefer it.

Consequently, we've planned a "wikitext mode" for the visual editor for a long time. It provides as much of the visual editor's features as possible, for those times that you need or want wikitext. It has the same user interface as the visual editor, including the same toolbar across the top with the same buttons. It provides access to the citoid service for formatting citations, integrated search options for inserting images, and the ability to add new templates in a simple dialog. Like in the visual editor, if you paste in formatted text copied from another page, then formatting (such as bolding) will automatically be converted into wikitext.

All wikis now have access to this mode as a Beta Feature. When enabled, it replaces your existing wikitext editor everywhere. If you don't like it, you can reverse this at any time by turning off the Beta Feature in your preferences. We don't want to surprise anyone, so it's strictly an opt-in-only Beta Feature. It won't switch on automatically for anyone, even if you have previously checked the box to "Automatically enable most beta features".

The new wikitext edit mode is based on the visual editor, so it requires JavaScript (as does the current wikitext editor). It doesn't work with gadgets that have only been designed for the older one (and vice versa), so some users will miss gadgets they find important. We're happy to work with gadget authors to help them update their code to work with both editors. We're not planning to get rid of the current main wikitext editor on desktop in the foreseeable future. We're also not going to remove the existing ability to edit plain wikitext without JavaScript. Finally, though it should go without saying, if you prefer to continue using the current wikitext editor, then you may so do.

This is an early version, and we'd love to know what you think so we can make it better. Please leave feedback about the new mode on the feedback page. You may write comments in any language. Thank you.

James Forrester (Product Manager, Editing department, Wikimedia Foundation) --19:31, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Notification problems

I have noticed problems with the notification page simply displaying diagonal lines and never delivering notifications for at least a few days now. Previously I simply clicked on my alerts or my talk page, which was usually what was being noted, but the latest notification seemed to be relevant to neither of them, and I have thus not found out what it was supposed to notify me of. I use Safari in macOS Sierra, but have also checked it out in Firefox also — and it is not working in either. I am noting this just to find if others are experiencing such problems, and expect that there is some problem in some of the latest software of either the wiki or my system. I also haven't had the time-showing option working for some time, but haven't been around enough to be very bothered by that. I have to be leaving again now, but will check on any observations here in coming days. So it goes… ⨀∴☥☮♥∵ॐ …Blessings. ~ ♞☤☮♌Kalki·†·⚓⊙☳☶⚡ 00:11, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

I am experiencing the same with regards to the notifications display and the diagonal lines - and I also have not had the clock for a while. I also have experienced loss of other gadgets and regular functionality (for example, most times when I am editing and try to use the bar below the edit space to add a category or the {{DEFAULTSORT:}}, they do not work either. Most work for me lately has had to be done manually. I use Chrome almost exclusively. ~ UDScott (talk) 12:52, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

The bar below the edit space works for me, with one caveat: the cursor at the insertion point (blinking vertical bar) must be active when you click the item to be inserted. It is easy to inadvertently deactivate it when scrolling the screen to reach the bar below the edit space. ~ Ningauble (talk) 15:11, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

I still have issues - yes I know about the cursor (thought this was the issue, but it does not seem to be). ~ UDScott (talk) 15:52, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Hmm. Extension:CharInsert works fine for me (other than a glitch a couple years ago, long since been fixed). Does it always not work, or is it intermittent? When did it stop working? Does it work for you at Wikipedia? Are you able to test it in a different browser? Have you tried disabling gadgets (at least temporarily) (especially those that are not working) to see if they interfere with it? Before reporting a bug at Phabricator we should have some info about the context that makes it fail... ~ Ningauble (talk) 19:40, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

It's very weird - I only seem to have issues here at WQ. It even extends to that when I search (by typing in the search box before hitting return) for a page here, I do not get a dropdown list of suggested pages, although I still do at WP. I'm still able to function, but a lot of the conveniences I was used to don't seem to work here anymore. ~ UDScott (talk) 21:04, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

UDScott, the situation you describe with dropdowns is attributable, with a high degree of certainty, to side effects of your User Preference settings at Wikiquote. I recommend that you disable all gadgets (user-gererated content that is not maintained well, or at all) and beta features (experiments that are not warranted to be safe and effective) and completely clear your browser cache. You can turn them back on one at a time too to determine which one(s) are causing problems. ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:52, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

Ningauble, thanks - I'm still not sure which one was causing the issue, but I have gotten most of the functionality I like back. I'm very much more of a quote person than a technical person. :-) ~ UDScott (talk) 18:22, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

• I sometimes get notifications (the alert bell becomes red) on this wiki, but then when I click on the bell, no new notification is listed and its color disappears. It's annoying, because then you have to (try to) find what caused this yourself. My little theory is that this always happens when you receive notifications from other wikis (which don't get listed on Wikiquote). At least in my case, they are often either "thank-you"s or new messages on my talk page in some Wiki other than Wikiquote, though occasionally I can't figure out why the bell turned red at all. ~ DanielTom (talk) 12:04, 20 December 2016 (UTC)
  • DanielTom may have nailed the cause of this problem. To avoid it, I always open notifications in a new tab (center-click in Firefox on Windows), which brings up a two column display listing wikis with notifications on the left and notifications from one wiki on the right. Selecting a different wiki displays its notifications. The full page display includes both message types, "alerts" (bell icon) and "notices" (inbox icon), in a single list. The dropdown message list (left-click) is mostly useless: open a new tab to view all notification types from all sources. ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:57, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

I don’t normally open the page in a new tab, and might try that next time. I actually found out what the notification was by doing a pull down of the message at the commons, but it is clear from the other comments that there is something wrong in the wiki-software and it wasn’t merely my system, which I recently updated. I have only had time to browse a few things and must be leaving again. Will also check in later today very briefly, before leaving again. ~ ♞☤☮♌Kalki·†·⚓⊙☳☶⚡ 18:01, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

I am inclined to agree that there is something wrong in the software, but I think it is working "correctly" as designed. It's just that the design is wrong. (It seems that the more the designers fiddle around with bells and whistles, the more usability suffers.) ~ Ningauble (talk) 19:54, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

In theme pages, how much of a quote must be related to the theme?

An issue that comes up on theme pages is that sometimes a quote includes material unrelated to the article theme. It seems to me that in order for a quote to be suitable for inclusion on a theme page, it must not contain too much unrelated material.

Here are three examples, which User:Markjoseph125 and I are discussing:

1. Markjoseph125's proposed addition to Sin:

• To feel oneself so tiny, so fragile, so inherently losable, was at first spiritually crushing. But, by the same token, this realisation was also strangely liberating: if an individual human existence meant so little, if one’s actions were so cosmically irrelevant, then the notion of some absolute moral framework made about as much sense as the universal ether. Measured against the infinite, therefore, people were no more capable of meaningful sin—or meaningful good—than ants, or dust.
  Worlds barely registered sin. Suns hardly deigned to notice it. On the scale of solar systems and galaxies, it meant nothing at all. It was like some obscure subatomic force that simply petered out on those scales.
  • Alastair Reynolds, Absolution Gap (2003), Chapter 6

My objection is that there is a lot of material unrelated to the theme. Markjoseph25 feels that this is not a problem. Neither of us can see a way to cut the quote to the relevant part without making it incomprehensible. A quote that requires a lot of off-topic supporting material seems to me unsuitable for inclusion on theme pages.

2. Markjoseph125's proposed addition to Art:

• Through the music speaks a truth about art that Wells does not understand, but that I hope to: that art doesn’t have to deliver a message in order to say something important. That art isn’t always a means to an end but sometimes an end in itself. That art may not be able to change the world, but it can still change the moment.
  • John Kessel, Buffalo in James Morrow (ed.) Nebula Awards 27, p. 211 (Originally published at The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction January, 1991)

The reference to the character is not comprehensible out of context and unrelated to the topic. I don't find the first sentence persuasive. Isn't "saying something important" delivering a message? The second sentence expresses a common sentiment, and not in a particularly new or interesting way. I propose to reduce it to this:

• Art may not be able to change the world, but it can still change the moment.
  • John Kessel, Buffalo in James Morrow (ed.) Nebula Awards 27, p. 211 (Originally published at The Magazine of Fantasy & Science Fiction January, 1991)

But Markjoseph25 prefers the entire quote.

3. Markjoseph125's proposed addition to Suffering:

• One’s strategy in trying to defend or to attack the claim that God exists obviously depends on what is meant by "God." It may be objected that it is not so difficult to isolate what might be called the popular conception of God. The problem of suffering is of crucial importance because it shows that the God of popular theism does not exist.
  • Walter Kaufmann, The Faith of a Heretic (1963), cited from the trade paperback edition published by Princeton University Press ISBN 978-0-691-16548-6, p. 137

My objection is: What do the first two sentences have to do with suffering? Why are they necessary to understand the third? The first two sentences don't support the thesis about suffering or add anything to it, as far as I can tell. The first two sentences seem in fact to show the implications of the thesis expressed in the third, if it is true, and these implications are not related to the article theme. I propose to reduce the quote to:

• Suffering ... shows that the God of popular theism does not exist.
  • Walter Kaufmann, The Faith of a Heretic (1963), cited from the trade paperback edition published by Princeton University Press ISBN 978-0-691-16548-6, p. 137

But again Markjoseph25 prefers to keep the off-topic part.

How much of a quote must be on topic to merit inclusion on theme pages? I'm inclined to say almost all, but I moved this discussion to the Village pump to see if other editors have opinions. Any thoughts? ~ Peter1c (talk) 02:40, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

Sorry, I don't have a lot of time for extended discussion, but my initial take is that the first two quotes are appropriate for the pages that contain them, but that the third is not. I do feel that the introductory sentences in the first two examples are necessary for full comprehension of the crucial parts that do refer directly to the theme topic of the pages. But I feel that the third example is a quote that is not so much about suffering as it is about the existence of God. To the larger question, I feel that the quote should be on topic (and not just have a word that happens to be the title of a theme page contained in a quote that is really about another topic - after all, we are not just another version of Bartlet's) - but I guess how on topic a given quote is remains a matter of opinion. Sorry, I'm not really helping all that much I guess - I don't know that a hard and fast rule can be applied. ~ UDScott (talk) 04:01, 20 December 2016 (UTC)

New template to replace magic words

Template:ISBN I have ported over w:Template:ISBN and w:Module:Check isxn from en.wp. Magic words are being phased out *edit: Magic *links* as hard-coded links for ISBN/RFC/PMID and although we don't have to replace all instances of them now, they will all be removed from MediaWiki in 2017. We have about 2,000 entries in Category:Pages using ISBN magic links. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 20:53, 28 December 2016 (UTC)

There are a lot of other widely used magic words besides ISBN, found in millions of WMF hosted wiki pages. I wonder if Justin (Koavf) could enlighten us about who thought it would be an improvement to break all these pages, and please provide a link to where this brilliant idea was discussed on-wiki.

It would also be helpful, assuming this is really happening, to provide a comprehensive catalog of replacements for other magic words such as DEFAULTSORT:, DISPLAYTITLE:, __NOTOC__, __NOINDEX__, etc., etc. ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:34, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

@Ningauble: Good point. I made an edit to my comment above. See mw:Requests_for_comment/Future_of_magic_links. This only affects ISBN/PMID/RFC links. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 16:37, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

All the planning charts and demolition orders have been on display at your local planning department in Alpha Centauri for 50 of your Earth years, so you’ve had plenty of time to lodge any formal complaint and it’s far too late to start making a fuss about it now. ... What do you mean you’ve never been to Alpha Centauri? — Douglas Adams, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Thanks for clarifying that you did not mean what you initially wrote Justin (Koavf), that all Magic Words will be removed in 2017.

The linked Request for Comment on a proposal of more limited scope looks very typical of the way things are done at MediaWiki:  it is clearly identified as still a draft not yet ready for discussion, it has received a total of one comment (in opposition), and yet the decision to enact the proposal is already being treated as a fait accompli and is not, in fact, open for discussion. ~ Ningauble (talk) 17:21, 29 December 2016 (UTC)

@Ningauble: I can't speak to how topics work at mw.org but for what it's worth, this is already happening in the code. We'll probably have to change over in the next several months. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 18:01, 29 December 2016 (UTC)