Wikiquote:Village pump archive 45


Work on the Musician pages edit

I noticed that there has been much work in adding categories to the musician pages today, and I would like to thank those who have been involved in this. It is a good improvement to open up more options of connecting people to more pages of interest to them. I hope to add quite a bit to some of the musician pages and create a few more in the coming year, and I definitely wish to encourage work on these, for I believe more of them will make the site more useful and appealing to many diverse music lovers in coming years. I just thought I would make note of these thoughts before doing a few edits, and once again leaving, but I believe that there will likely be a much greater interest in developing this project in the year ahead, by people with many diverse interests and views, and I certainly believe more poets and song-writers of many eras and styles should be represented. Though most of us also have many other ranges of interests that govern what we tend to attend to, I believe more attention to these will help make the site more popular and notable to many. So it goes... ~ Kalki·· 22:04, 2 April 2015 (UTC) + tweak[reply]

Possibility of a "Sister projects" report in the Wikipedia Signpost edit

Hello, all I'm a volunteer at the Wikipedia Signpost, the Wikimedia movement's biggest internal newspaper. Almost all of our coverage focuses on Wikipedia, with occasional coverage of Commons, the Meta-Wiki, MediaWiki, Wikidata, the the Wikimedia Labs; we have little to nothing to say about Wiktionary, Wikiquote, Wikibooks, Wikisource, Wikispecies, Wikinews, Wikiversity, or Wikivoyage. I'm interested in writing a special long-form "sister projects" report to try and address this shortfall. Is there anyone experienced in the Wikiquote project with whom I can speak with, perhaps over Skype, about the mission, organization, history, successes, troubles, and foibles of being a contributor to this project? If so, please drop me a line at my English Wikipedia talk page. Thanks! ResMar 21:04, 5 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Stewards confirmation rules edit

Hello, I made a proposal on Meta to change the rules for the steward confirmations. Currently consensus to remove is required for a steward to lose his status, however I think it's fairer to the community if every steward needed the consensus to keep. As this is an issue that affects all WMF wikis, I'm sending this notification to let people know & be able to participate. Best regards, --MF-W 16:12, 10 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

VisualEditor News #2—2015 edit

19:48, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

This is a message from the 2015 Wikimedia Foundation Elections Committee. Translations are available.



I am pleased to announce that nominations are now being accepted for the 2015 Wikimedia Foundation Elections. This year the Board and the FDC Staff are looking for a diverse set of candidates from regions and projects that are traditionally under-represented on the board and in the movement as well as candidates with experience in technology, product or finance. To this end they have published letters describing what they think is needed and, recognizing that those who know the community the best are the community themselves, the election committee is accepting nominations for community members you think should run and will reach out to those nominated to provide them with information about the job and the election process.

This year, elections are being held for the following roles:

Board of Trustees
The Board of Trustees is the decision-making body that is ultimately responsible for the long term sustainability of the Foundation, so we value wide input into its selection. There are three positions being filled. More information about this role can be found at the board elections page.

Funds Dissemination Committee (FDC)
The Funds Dissemination Committee (FDC) makes recommendations about how to allocate Wikimedia movement funds to eligible entities. There are five positions being filled. More information about this role can be found at the FDC elections page.

Funds Dissemination Committee (FDC) Ombud
The FDC Ombud receives complaints and feedback about the FDC process, investigates complaints at the request of the Board of Trustees, and summarizes the investigations and feedback for the Board of Trustees on an annual basis. One position is being filled. More information about this role can be found at the FDC Ombudsperson elections page.

The candidacy submission phase lasts from 00:00 UTC April 20 to 23:59 UTC May 5 for the Board and from 00:00 UTCApril 20 to 23:59 UTC April 30 for the FDC and FDC Ombudsperson. This year, we are accepting both self-nominations and nominations of others. More information on this election and the nomination process can be found on the 2015 Wikimedia elections page on Meta-Wiki.

Please feel free to post a note about the election on your project's village pump. Any questions related to the election can be posted on the talk page on Meta, or sent to the election committee's mailing list, board-elections -at-

On behalf of the Elections Committee,
-Gregory Varnum (User:Varnent)
Coordinator, 2015 Wikimedia Foundation Elections Committee

Posted by the MediaWiki message delivery on behalf of the 2015 Wikimedia Foundation Elections Committee, 05:03, 21 April 2015 (UTC)TranslateGet help[reply]

Found wrong source on Schumacher page edit

I think I found a wrong source on the Schumacher page, and mentioned it in the discussion there. I am not sure how to correct this. --Michael Scheffenacker (talk) 15:25, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Your efforts were very helpful. As I explained on the talk page of the article and your own talk page, the link you provided to The Radical Humanist, Vol. 37, No. 5 (August 1973), p. 22 does include the quote — but the first page 22 is in the April issue, while the text is later in the volume, on page 22 of the August issue. I have revised the sourcing in the article to reflect this. Thank you for providing better sourcing. ~ Kalki·· 16:04, 2 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This is a message from the 2015 Wikimedia Foundation Elections Committee. Translations are available.

Voting has begun for eligible voters in the 2015 elections for the Funds Dissemination Committee (FDC) and FDC Ombudsperson. Questions and discussion with the candidates for the Funds Dissemination Committee (FDC) and FDC Ombudsperson will continue during the voting. Nominations for the Board of Trustees will be accepted until 23:59 UTC May 5.

The Funds Dissemination Committee (FDC) makes recommendations about how to allocate Wikimedia movement funds to eligible entities. There are five positions on the committee being filled.

The FDC Ombudsperson receives complaints and feedback about the FDC process, investigates complaints at the request of the Board of Trustees, and summarizes the investigations and feedback for the Board of Trustees on an annual basis. One position is being filled.

The voting phase lasts from 00:00 UTC May 3 to 23:59 UTC May 10. Click here to vote. Questions and discussion with the candidates will continue during that time. Click here to ask the FDC candidates a question. Click here to ask the FDC Ombudsperson candidates a question. More information on the candidates and the elections can be found on the 2015 FDC election page, the 2015 FDC Ombudsperson election page, and the 2015 Board election page on Meta-Wiki.

On behalf of the Elections Committee,
-Gregory Varnum (User:Varnent)
Volunteer Coordinator, 2015 Wikimedia Foundation Elections Committee

Posted by the MediaWiki message delivery 03:45, 4 May 2015 (UTC) • TranslateGet help

Cross-wiki Proverb redundancy edit

I find it problematic that we have three different Wikiprojects that contain somewhat overlapping (but largely uncoordinated) material on proverbs.

This is something of a mess. I believe that there should be some coordination to avoid duplication of effort, the potential presentation of conflicting translations or interpretations, and other inconsistencies in content arising or likely to arise between projects. I propose a cross-wiki task force to review the materials contained in these three projects and to enforce some sence of coordination and communication between them. In my view, this is exactly the kind of opportunity to harness the energies that are going into three different, redundant pages, and build one thoroughly vetted page in a single place.

My inclination, quite frankly, is to say that we should do away with the Wikipedia list and the Wiktionary appendix entirely, and host the entire thing on Wikiquote, with the appropriate cross-wiki soft redirects from the other sites, and with links to the Wiktionary definitions for individual pages on specific proverbs. I am cross-posting this on all three projects, but I believe that the discussion should be kept in one place, and should probably be the Wikipedia Village Pump discussion because that is the highest-traffic project. Cheers! BD2412 T 01:59, 9 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I saw your note here, and made fuller response at the Wikipedia page you suggested, summarizing my very brief assessment of things with the statement that "so long as there are general links provided between the projects, I am inclined to believe that any attempts to artificially develop absolute cross-wiki conformity in aims and purposes in relation to the listing of proverbs would probably be far more of a mess than any purported messes that such would be designed to solve." I am sure all the articles in every place could use improvement, but most of us don’t have time or inclination to attend to them, and I don’t see that developing a cross-wiki policies on attending to them would make many minor things any less problematic, and might make major aspects of things of general importance far more problematic. I once again have only a short time to deal with things here, as I must be preparing to leave again soon, and continue to be very busy with other matters. So it goes Blessings. ~ Kalki·· 11:26, 9 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Can we have sub-pages? edit

Can we have pages in your username space?
aGastya  ✉ Dicere Aliquid :) 21:55, 12 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, just create a page at User:[Your Username]/[Subpage name]. BD2412 T 23:30, 12 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]


The British Library has media related to Magna Carta.

I thought people might enjoy this embroidered version of the Wikiquote logo, taken from Magna Carta (An Embroidery), a 40-foot long recreation in needlework of the en-wiki article Magna Carta as it stood in May 2014, that was unveiled at the British Library on Thursday.

Further images at c:Category:Magna Carta (An Embroidery). Jheald (talk) 14:01, 16 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]


This is a message from the 2015 Wikimedia Foundation Elections Committee. Translations are available.

Voting has begun for eligible voters in the 2015 elections for the Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees. Questions and discussion with the candidates for the Board will continue during the voting.

The Wikimedia Foundation Board of Trustees is the ultimate governing authority of the Wikimedia Foundation, a 501(c)(3) non-profit organization registered in the United States. The Wikimedia Foundation manages many diverse projects such as Wikipedia and Commons.

The voting phase lasts from 00:00 UTC May 17 to 23:59 UTC May 31. Click here to vote. More information on the candidates and the elections can be found on the 2015 Board election page on Meta-Wiki.

On behalf of the Elections Committee,
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Posted by the MediaWiki message delivery 17:20, 17 May 2015 (UTC) • TranslateGet help

List of People ranked by number of quotes edit

Has anyone created a List of People ranked by number of quotes they have on Wikiquote? - —This unsigned comment is by (talkcontribs) . 12:50, May 29, 2015 (edit) (undo)

There is a listing of -- Mdd (talk) 12:59, 29 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Number of quotes is a bit misleading. For example, you could have a whole speech from a Shakespeare play as one quote, or you could extract from it three or four notable phrases, s having more quotes but less text. Conversely, length of an article might be increased by having numerous pictures with lengthy captions that just repeat quotes.--Abramsky (talk) 20:50, 31 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sister Project Links in En-Wiki Navigational Boxes edit

Hi All, there is a RFC on a topic of interest of this community at w:en:Wikipedia talk:Categories, lists, and navigation templates#RFC: Should Sister Project links be included in Navboxes?. Please join the conversation, and help us figure out the role of links to other Wikimedia Projects in English Wikipedia Navboxes, Sadads (talk) 14:26, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Pywikibot compat will no longer be supported - Please migrate to pywikibot core edit

Sorry for English, I hope someone translates this.
Pywikibot (then "Pywikipediabot") was started back in 2002. In 2007 a new branch (formerly known as "rewrite", now called "core") was started from scratch using the MediaWiki API. The developers of Pywikibot have decided to stop supporting the compat version of Pywikibot due to bad performance and architectural errors that make it hard to update, compared to core. If you are using pywikibot compat it is likely your code will break due to upcoming MediaWiki API changes (e.g. T101524). It is highly recommended you migrate to the core framework. There is a migration guide, and please contact us if you have any problem.

There is an upcoming MediaWiki API breaking change that compat will not be updated for. If your bot's name is in this list, your bot will most likely break.

Thank you,
The Pywikibot development team, 19:30, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Wikidata: Access to data from arbitrary items is coming edit

(Sorry for writing in English)

When using data from Wikidata on Wikipedia and other sister projects, there is currently a limitation in place that hinders some use cases: data can only be accessed from the corresponding item. So, for example, the Wikipedia article about Berlin can only get data from the Wikidata item about Berlin but not from the item about Germany. This had technical reasons. We are now removing this limitation. It is already done for a number of projects. Your project is one of the next ones:

  • 11 June 2015: all Wikiquote, all remaining Wikivoyage
  • 15 June 2015: Wikipedias: ar, ca, es, hu, ko, ro, uk, vi

We invite you to play around with this new feature if you are one of the people who have been waiting for this for a long time. If you have technical issues/questions with this you can come to d:Wikidata:Contact the development team.

How to use it, once it is enabled:

I hope it will be helpful for you and allow you to do useful things with the help of Wikidata.

Cheers Lydia Pintscher 14:05, 7 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

VisualEditor News #3—2015 edit

10:44, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

HTTPS edit

22:00, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Problems on the iCarly article edit

Hi, guys! Well, I'm a newbie here and I don't know if this is the right place to complain about something but I was reading iCarly article and I noticed someone messed up that page by editing the dialogues and typing curse words... it is bothering so much and I could edit that myself, however my computer has no internet and on mobile editing something is very hard work. Can someone fix that?

I have reverted the vandalism—thanks for letting us now. (There could still be some left: unfortunately, some IPs like to engage in subtle vandalism, which is harder to detect; but at least the offensive words are now gone.) ~ DanielTom (talk) 18:39, 23 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Any requests? edit

Hello; I read in the archives of admin applications that being active at the village pump is a must. I was wondering what to do next other than vandalism and copyright cleanup, I think I've done a pretty good job at Wikiquote so far, but now I'm out of ideas. CensoredScribe (talk) 20:51, 29 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, I'll see what I can do. CensoredScribe (talk) 00:47, 30 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Chemistry Quote Competition edit

The Royal Society of Chemistry's chemistry quotation competition (discussed above) is now running. While the intention is to draw new readers and contributors to Wikiquote, entries from existing editors will of course also be welcome. Pigsonthewing (talk) 09:31, 10 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Silver City edit

Hi, there are two pages related to the same film: Silver City (2004 film) and Silver City. Would you please merge them in the same page and connect it to the correct Wikidata item? Thanks :-) --Superchilum (talk) 10:09, 11 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Symbols on the main page QOTD edit

The quote of the day (QOTD) entry on the main page often has bizarre and irrelevant symbols accompanying the quotation;

For example today's quote is:

"Everything written with vitality expresses that vitality: there are no dull subjects, only dull minds. All men who read escape from something else into what lies behind the printed page; the quality of the dream may be argued, but its release has become a functional necessity. All men must escape at times from the deadly rhythm of their private thoughts. It is part of the process of life among thinking beings."
- Raymond Chandler

Accompanied by these symbols (amongst others):


I suggest this be discontinued or at least greatly reduced in frequency of occurrence. What think ye other Wikiquote users?

Note: This is my first visit to the "village pump" so I do not know how to proceed other than to make a suggestion and await response. Please bear with me if I err.

I was just preparing to leave as I checked in here, and have taken the time to make a brief reply before leaving.

I will start by asserting that I am very thankful for some of the contributions you have been making lately in providing quotes. I also will confess I often tend to use some symbols which in some way express or indicate vitality in ways that will not always be familiar to all. WE all are products of very mixed influences, and I assert that the wise acknowledge this and do not seek to needlessly constrain the influences which can arise.

There is an eternal struggle throughout all ages between the tendencies of conformism driven by fear of life and diversity among the ignorant and confused, and desires to rule over others amidst that, and the hope in life and diversity among the most knowledgeable and wise, who seek to rule no other but themselves and what influences they choose to manifest and support for the vitality of all.

As mortal beings with limited awareness and appreciation of many things we do not and cannot always agree with all of the ideas of those whose views are indicated or posted here, but in the central arrangements of the QOTD I have often employed symbols which have often long represented some of the ideas expressed, and the Ankh is certainly an ancient symbol of life and vitality — among the oldest employed by humankind in its writings, and the heart shape in our times has long been employed in similar ways. To call these "bizarre and irrelevant" in this context is I believe rather "bizarre" and though one might wish to assert the less familiar symbols of the Helm of Awe, and that of "Yoism" "irrelevant" to most, there are clearly relevancies with the theme of Chandler's assertion. I myself do not accept or approve all the assumptions of people who most regularly employ these symbols, but I do not accept or approve the assumptions that display or familiarity with them and various notions of what they mean or might mean should be reduced even further.

I had hoped to do a bit more work here already today, but was to busy with other things to do so — and now must leave again, with a few other things unfinished that I had intended to do. So it goes Blessings. ~ Kalki·· 12:44, 23 July 2015 (UTC) + tweaks.[reply]

If anyone other than Kalki wants to start putting together QOTD entries, they are free to do that. As a matter of practice, Kalki does them, and the rest of us appreciate Kalki taking on the chore, and do not much mind the way it is done. QOTD is ephemeral; if the current arrangement is problematic, wait a day and it will be gone. BD2412 T 13:12, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with BD2412's comments and would add that I do not have an issue with the use of such images - in fact I believe they drive users to explore further ideas. I have taken exception on rare occasions with the images selected (and sometimes with the amount of images - but in both cases, discussion was held regarding any perceived issues and I believe this process is working fine), but in general I think they are good things (much like the use of wikilinks) that encourage users to explore new ideas. The fact that sometimes the connection between the images and the quote is not immediately clear actually makes this exploration even more likely to occur. ~ UDScott (talk) 13:34, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@ BD2412: (1) As a matter of practice, most attempts to actually participate in editing the selection and layout of QOTD images have been unilaterally reverted by Kalki. (2) Each QOTD display is indeed ephemeral, but the pattern is persistent. Consider how many images of this sort have been used (and re-used) in this current month to date. ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:49, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with IOHANNVSVERVS that doodling on the Main Page is not appropriate, and have said so before. (And yes, this is the right way to raise your concerns.) Image montages on the Main Page have been discussed many times here at the Village Pump and at Talk:Main Page. To recap some of the main points of my opinion on these issues:
  1. Image use on the Main Page should conform to Wikiquote's Image use policy in all cases and without exception. (Not because "rules must be obeyed", to which some may object, but because the fundamental idea embodied in the rule is a very important one.)
  2. The main mage QOTD should not be surrounded on all four sides with images. This takes up space that is disproportionate to and detracts from the quote itself, and makes the QOTD box a disproportionate chunk of the whole page.
  3. Instead, a little space should be allocated to citing the source of the quote. Every quotation in main space (i.e. "content pages") should be cited. The Main Page should not be an exception to this rule, it should be exemplary.
When I first joined Wikiquote in 2008, the main page QOTD was accompanied by a single small image on the side (usually a picture of the author). I am not aware that anyone ever complained about it. After it expanded into a montage of images surrounding the quote (with varying degrees of relevance) many people have complained about it many times. At one point it even led to banning all images from the main page for a year. I believe this graffiti on the Main Page is an embarrassment to Wikiquote, and reform is long overdue. ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:31, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think Kalki prefers these little symbols over citing sources for one reason only: his own personal sense of aesthetics. In other words, he thinks the symbols look pretty. ~ DanielTom (talk) 17:02, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I hope you are not being facetious, DanielTom. -IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 18:09, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Notwithstanding DanielTom's tone, in fact Kalki's expressed reason for not citing sources on the main page is an aesthetic preference. (That was at a time when only a single small image was being used, before montages and doodles were introduced.) ~ Ningauble (talk) 20:42, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to say that I intend no disrespect in my writings, nor to Kalki nor any other. Perhaps my calling the symbols bizarre is unfair, I concede that. However, the charge that they are insufficiently relevant stands. The heart as a symbol of vitality is somewhat fair but this highly ornate heart with rainbow pattern is stretching it. Also, as regards vitality, the term is quite broadly applicable.

Though this quotation:

"Nothing is harder, yet nothing is more necessary, than to speak of certain things whose existence is neither demonstrable nor probable. The very fact that serious and conscientious men treat them as existing things brings them a step closer to existence and to the possibility of being born."
-Herman Hesse

Certainly is not related to these symbols:


Additionally, that these symbols are so often doubled and made to be symmetrical suggests that they are being used more for decoration than for illustration.

It is fair to consider the Wikiquote Image use policy regarding relevance:

1. Images should directly support or embody the theme of the provided quotes.
2. The connection between the images used and the subject matter of the page as a whole, and individual quotes on it, should be obvious and specific. The relevance should not be so ambiguous or abstract that it could refer to anything or nothing.
3. Images are used to illustrate the subject of a page or a quote, not to express an opinion, interpretation, or commentary by, e.g., introducing metaphors, analogies, comparisons, or relationships that are not explicit in the captioning quotation, or by highlighting arbitrary, literal meanings of words used in a figurative sense.
4. Images that could connote a specific cultural meaning that differs from that of either the page or the specified quote should not be used.

What say you friend Kalki?

-IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 18:09, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You're not the only person who thinks the images are inappropriate, that they discredit Wikiquote, and make it look foolish and silly. Unfortunately, as BD2412 says, only one editor seems to have the time and energy to put together the daily quotes, and nothing that anyone says - and no Wikipedia policy - has ever discouraged that editor from decorating quotations with symbols, whether appropriate or not. It would be very good for Wikiquote to ban images on the main page, but I doubt it's going to happen. Also unfortunately, more than one editor has reduced his or her participation in Wikiquote because it is embarrassing to be part of a site that looks like the current Wikiquote, but, again, there seems to be no alternative. By the way, prepare yourself for an extremely long answer to the question at the end of your comment above. Macspaunday (talk) 18:27, 23 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
There are many issues raised, by a few people, and laughably ignorant and confused assumptions and misleading assertions, as well as legitimate concerns, and all these deserve an adequate response, and tempering my self somewhat, I will respond as fully as I feel appropriate, in time; but as usually in recent months, I have had much less time than I would wish to spend here, and I must be leaving now. ~ Kalki·· 00:00, 24 July 2015 (UTC) + tweaks[reply]

Kalki, your response is awaited. Also, I would like to say that there are some here who would attack your character; pay them no mind; this ought not be and is not personal. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 03:05, 25 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I thank you for your patience, and I will attempt to provide direct responses to your statements and inquiries within the next day or so, and respond to some of the more complicated matters others have indicated, at least to some degree, within the next week or so. I remain far busier with many matters in recent days than I expected to be, but believe I should have more time to spend here tomorrow than I have had in weeks, and at least begin to directly indicate some of the many things on my mind in regard to some of these issues. Once again I must be leaving, but responding here will be one of my priorities after I return. So it goes Blessings. ~ Kalki·· 00:02, 26 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I apologize once again. Some of the issues which have been raised impel me towards a more thorough range of assertions than I am yet prepared to provide here. I did not have quite as much time in recent days to attend to things here as I had hoped and expected.

From a very early age, I was acutely aware of the difficulties and limitations of many forms of communication and indication of facts and ideas about experiences and knowledge, and had rather profound and extensive insights on many ranges of perspectives on many things which most seemed relatively unfamiliar with, and seemed to have immense difficulty understanding, relative to my own perceptions, and I clearly discerned how limitations and errors in regard to a number of certain facts affected how much people could come to easily and properly understand about many others. The quote which you referred to, as presented, was this:

Nothing is harder, yet nothing is more necessary, than to speak of certain things whose existence is neither demonstrable nor probable. The very fact that serious and conscientious men treat them as existing things brings them a step closer to existence and to the possibility of being born.
~ Hermann Hesse ~

That quote by Hesse, who wrote quite a number of works with profound ethical and mystical perspectives, on lore gathered from both western and eastern cultures, was from his The Glass Bead Game (also known as Magister Ludi). If you were curious enough to investigate the matter you might have read in the Wikipedia article on that work that in it: "The rules of the game are only alluded to — they are so sophisticated that they are not easy to imagine. Playing the game well requires years of hard study of music, mathematics, and cultural history. The game is essentially an abstract synthesis of all arts and sciences. It proceeds by players making deep connections between seemingly unrelated topics." It also states: The Glass Bead Game is "a kind of synthesis of human learning" in which themes, such as a musical phrase or a philosophical thought, are stated. As the Game progresses, associations between the themes become deeper and more varied.

In the central area, I used images related to Rosicrucianism and the Age of Enlightenment which blossomed despite efforts to suppress the ideas of precursors and influences upon them, such as Giordano Bruno.

Having now only slightly touched upon Hesse's complex awareness, appreciation and involvement in many forms of mysticism, playful and thoughtful games, and what I would characterize as somewhat absurdist perspectives upon the ways many diverse truths can be indicated, related and associated, I will now briefly address some of the most direct assertions made in your statements. You declared with apparent certitude that such a statement "certainly is not related to these symbols" and then post them, as if the bare display of these symbols which might be to varying degrees familiar or unfamiliar to many were evident proof of that assertion. I certainly do and must disagree, for a number of reasons, most of which I will not even attempt to elaborate upon, at present, but I will begin to indicate some of them.

The layout itself, as limited and flawed as it was from my own perspectives, had some significance, as to how the images and symbols were arrayed, with each other, but I will simply indicate some aspects of some of the meanings of these symbols themselves and some of the ways in which they certainly can be very properly perceived to relate to the statement.

  1.   : this is a very simplified and stylized representation of the complex multi-dimensional pattern which has become known as Metatron's Cube, and "the fruit of life".
  2.   : A symbol of the Christian mystic Jakob Böhme incorporating patterns with Christian, Jewish and Pythagorean significance.
  3.   : more pythagorean and mystic symbolism here, indicating many things, including justice, equality and birth.
  4.   : A symbol of psychiatry and Psychological Balance and Health, derived from ancient Hermetic symbolism of communication between the divine and mundane.
  5.   : The heart, which has been used as a symbol of love and the soul, is here rendered in rainbow hues, which have long signified various ideas of splendor, diversity, and even divine covenant between God and mortal beings, of tolerance and security.
  6.   A symbol created to represent "friendship around the world",
  7.   : the Ægishjálmur (helm of awe) has been used as a symbol of awareness and potency in response to aspects of Reality in all directions and dimensions, and as one "to protect against abuse of power" such as would overly constrain or destroy the vitality of individuals or societies.

I certainly believe that all of these relate to varying degrees to such ideas as many "serious and conscientious" people do tend to treat as existing things and thus help to bring "a step closer to existence and to the possibility of being born", into the existences or awareness and appreciation of others. Examples of "Psychological Balance and Health", "Justice" and "friendship around the world" and "protections against abuse of power" might not yet be so prominent and reliable as many would wish, but they do exist to varying degrees, and I believe most who are wise are inclined to help them achieve greater existence and new birth into the lives of many.

There is much more that could be explained, or at least indicated, in terms of other more generally familiar ranges of knowledge, but I firmly believe that people with knowledge enough to make associations and relations that are evident in statements or symbols, whether mystical, scientific, or related to artistries of many diverse types, should not be required to explain everything they do or say or present to everyone who lacks knowledge or familiarity with them, nor be compelled to silence in efforts to indicate only the set of things which everyone would find obvious and sensible — which actually is nothing at all.

Many people certainly should often be prepared to explain some aspects of relatively obscure but profound associations or simple jokes to the politely curious, but to demand that all things which can be or are associated with a statement, word, idea or image be explained or evident to everyone, involves rather absurdly stupid presumptions which would permit the least intelligent and most obnoxious to insist that the most intelligent and knowledgeable constantly be burdened with trying to convey the most complex and intricate forms of thought to those who are either least inclined or least capable to engage their minds beyond the most moronic levels of literalism and legalism, or even allow others to embrace, nurture, or express many forms of imagination and awareness which are not abjectly deferential to their particular tastes.

If one were to limit oneself literally to the supposed "common sense" constraints dictated in such assertions as some have provided, one would actually be unable to provide so much of a statement or quote as even a Dr. Seuss rhyme:

I am Sam.

And even many of the contexts and complexities of association of so simple a statement as that, which might be familiar or even obvious to millions of people, will be relatively obscure or unimagined by many millions more.

There are even more extremely facetious yet true and valid assertions I could make about some of the rules and mandates which I believe some people are all to prone to casually devise, but I prefer to not delve into many of these issues at present.

I will confess that I have often been in a bit more of a rush than normal on many of selections the layouts in the last month, and actually am today, and that there were aesthetic dissatisfactions which remained with that one which you first specified, but I believed it potentially educational to the curious to include a number of indications of mystical allusions related well to the themes and assertions of that quotation. Much of the initial layout actually began as I was considering using another quote by him from another work: "It is not our purpose to become each other; it is to recognize each other, to learn to see the other and honor him for what he is: each the other's opposite and complement." I also initially thought of using some eastern symbolism such as Hesse was very familiar with, but in the end, after deciding to use another quote by him, and with limited room, I confined myself mostly to some indications of traditions of mathematics, philosophy and mysticism, and sophisticated humor about the human condition, such as are evident in the novel quoted.

During the time this discussion has been occurring in this section, one of the QOTDs was a very good one suggested the day before its use by Bystander53 (talk · contributions):

The more one does and sees and feels, the more one is able to do, and the more genuine may be one's appreciation of fundamental things like home, and love, and understanding companionship.
~ Amelia Earhart ~

I believe that this relates well to some of the reasons I often tend to prefer to provide more rather than fewer links to associated ideas such as images, symbols and hypertext links can provide. At a very early age I recognized the truth that the more that is known the more there is that CAN be known, in even more complex and splendrous ways, and that there is no end to explorations of the splendors of Reality which mortal minds can endeavor to appreciate, so long as they live.

The quote of the day which was selected for July 26, when I initially attempted to make an adequate response here, was one by Carl Jung, who is widely known for his research into the meanings or significance of symbols and the interpretations of signs, and in considering quotes by him and several other notable people I had some strong inclination to use this one, from his Modern Man in Search of a Soul (1933):

No language exists that cannot be misused... Every Interpretation is hypothetical, for it is a mere attempt to read an unfamiliar text.

I believe that it is appropriate to end my current note with some reference to the important subject of semiotics. I believe it can be vitally important to have a profound respect for the diversity of meanings which can be associated in many relatively fixed or malleable ways with various signs and words and this can help one to properly avoid many of the worst forms of idolatry and delusion of confusing absolute and relative aspects of reality, which have long plagued humankind, whether one is fortunate enough to be socially permitted to identify them by such words or not, in relation to various traditions.

I ended up favoring the QOTD chosen for many diverse reasons which it would take me a great deal of time to indicate or explain, as is always the case for nearly any decisions which are made by any human being, though many remain in ignorance or denial of such facts, or choose to ignore them.

With that relatively brief note (for me, relative to the number of issues raised), I will close my comments here, for now, and must again be attending to other matters. So it goes Blessings. ~ Kalki·· 21:21, 28 July 2015 (UTC) + tweaks[reply]


So there is method in your seeming madness.

I jest; but truthfully, and respectfully, I say: "Your ways are wise, but they are not Wikiquote's ways."

Let us review the Wikiquote image use policy regarding relevance:

  1. Images should directly support or embody the theme of the provided quotes.
  2. The connection between the images used and the subject matter of the page as a whole, and individual quotes on it, should be obvious and specific. The relevance should not be so ambiguous or abstract that it could refer to anything or nothing.
  3. Images are used to illustrate the subject of a page or a quote, not to express an opinion, interpretation, or commentary by, e.g., introducing metaphors, analogies, comparisons, or relationships that are not explicit in the captioning quotation, or by highlighting arbitrary, literal meanings of words used in a figurative sense.
  4. Images that could connote a specific cultural meaning that differs from that of either the page or the specified quote should not be used.

If you start your own website I will be happy to visit and learn more of all these things you speak; truly so. For example, I was grateful to have learned about Jakob Böhme from investigating your usage of his image; I also learned about C.S. Lewis' The Pilgrim's Regress, which references Boehme.

However, I still maintain that this image:

  1.   : A symbol including the names "Christus" and "Immanuel" surrounding an inverted heart containing a Tetractys of the Tetragrammaton... etc.

Is not relevant to Hesse's quote of:

"Nothing is harder, yet nothing is more necessary, than to speak of certain things whose existence is neither demonstrable nor probable. The very fact that serious and conscientious men treat them as existing things brings them a step closer to existence and to the possibility of being born."

By your standards, everything must be considered related in some indirect way.

Whether the current Wikiquote policy is inferior to your attitude or not, surely the policy ought to be changed before your differing practice be implemented.

I personally support the Wikiquote policy, but if you would like to change it, you may attempt to. I don't know the regulations regarding modification of policy, but I suspect with such a controversial suggestion as yours it will not pass. But I stand prepared to be proven wrong, and I encourage you to campaign to change the policy if you feel it will improve Wikiquote. Until then, I think it is fair and just that the current policy be followed, and that your contradictory practices be discontinued until Wikiquote policy is modified to accord with them.

Kalki, your response I was glad to read and I respect you. I reiterate that this is not personal and neither of us will decide which of our suggestions the Wikiquote follows, but the community will decide. I thank you for your time and effort to respond and engage rationally and politely.

Sincerely, IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 04:09, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to hear what others think after all of this progress in the discussion; especially UDScott and BD2412. -IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 16:47, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The Wikimedia Commons has literally millions of images available. I say we institute a practice of not using the same image twice. That will insure that every arrangement contains new and original images. This is not intended to detract from the general rule that images should relate to the quote (although I think this should be applied more loosely to QOTD than to quotes on quotation pages). BD2412 T 17:36, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
This is an excellent idea, which will make the whole wiki more interesting to visitors. And everything said by IOHANNVSVERVS seems to me both eloquent and right. As always, of course, the problem is going to enforcement of any policy that gets decided upon. If an editor ignores policies, this wiki seems disinclined to do anything about it except to hold a fruitless discussion (on this page) once every year or two, never with any results that affect the actual appearance of the pages. Macspaunday (talk) 18:58, 29 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I think the problem with repeated use of irrelevant images lies not in the repetition but in the irrelevancy itself. For widely quoted authors whose words are featured at QotD on multiple occasions, I have no objection to using the same portrait of the author more than once. ~ Ningauble (talk) 13:43, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I suggest that we adopt the following rule: a portrait of the author should always be used if available. My thinking is, this would reduce at least by half the subjectivity (and bias) in the choice of pictures. ~ DanielTom (talk) 19:39, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Provided that a portrait of passable quality is available, I agree. (E.g., the only available picture of George Pólya would be embarrassing on the project main page. That said, the images actually chosen when quoting him [2][3] were not particularly apropos.) ~ Ningauble (talk) 22:44, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Observing the origin of many of the symbols used in this way, I have initiated a separate thread to discuss #Exhibiting user artworks on Wikiquote Main Page below. ~ Ningauble (talk) 20:38, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to create PNG thumbnails of static GIF images edit

The thumbnail of this gif is of really bad quality.
How a PNG thumb of this GIF would look like

There is a proposal at the Commons Village Pump requesting feedback about the thumbnails of static GIF images: It states that static GIF files should have their thumbnails created in PNG. The advantages of PNG over GIF would be visible especially with GIF images using an alpha channel. (compare the thumbnails on the side)

This change would affect all wikis, so if you support/oppose or want to give general feedback/concerns, please post them to the proposal page. Thank you. --McZusatz (talk) & MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 05:08, 24 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

What does a Healthy Community look like to you? edit


The Community Engagement department at the Wikimedia Foundation has launched a new learning campaign. The WMF wants to record community impressions about what makes a healthy online community. Share your views and/or create a drawing and take a chance to win a Wikimania 2016 scholarship! Join the WMF as we begin a conversation about Community Health. Contribute a drawing or answer the questions on the campaign's page.

Why get involved? edit

The world is changing. The way we relate to knowledge is transforming. As the next billion people come online, the Wikimedia movement is working to bring more users on the wiki projects. The way we interact and collaborate online are key to building sustainable projects. How accessible are Wikimedia projects to newcomers today? Are we helping each other learn?
Share your views on this matter that affects us all!
We invite everyone to take part in this learning campaign. Wikimedia Foundation will distribute one Wikimania Scholarship 2016 among those participants who are eligible.

More information edit

Happy editing!

MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 23:42, 31 July 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Do Superhero films count as fantasy? edit

If Superman is a fantasy film (as it is currently categorized), than isn't Friday the 13th as well? The page for fantasy says that it has to avoid scientific explanations and isn't macabre. CensoredScribe (talk) 01:03, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Persian on Wikiquote Globe edit

Please update the globe on Wikiquote Portal. Persian Wikiquote is one the most active Wikiquote projects with 3,000+ articles. I think it's time to put it on the globe. --Doostdar (talk) 12:09, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Requests to update the global project portal should be made at template. Global portals can only be edited by MetaWiki administrators.

The portal has generally displayed the ten largest projects. It is not entirely up to date at the moment, but Persian Wikiquote is currently listed 12th in size here. It would be difficult to accommodate this request without redesigning the page with more spokes on the wheel. ~ Ningauble (talk) 18:24, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This was originally at the Admins Noticeboard...

Somebody please check into Alexandervoneimann's editing in the article these past two months. He's deliberately violating LOQ and even after Cirt and I already reprimanded him about not running afoul. It'd be better if this was handled by people who never edited there at all. He also does this at other MCU-related articles like Thor.--Eaglestorm (talk) 05:54, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Proper section for this quote edit

I have added this quotation to the Napoleon Bonaparte page:

  • A dîner, il nous disait qu'il se trouvait beaucoup mieux, et nous lui avons fait observer, à ce sujet, que, depuis quelque temps néanmoins, il ne sortait plus, et travaillat huit, dix, douze heures par jour.
    «C'est cela même,» disait-il: «le travail est mon élément; je suis né et construit pour le travail. J'ai connu les limites de mes jambes, j'ai connu les limites de mes yeux; je n'ai jamais pu connaître celles de mon travail.»
    • At dinner, he told us that he was much better, and we pointed out to him, about this, that, for some time however, he had not been out, and had been working eight, ten, or twelve hours a day. "That is just it," said he: "work is my element; I was born and made for it. I have found the limits of my legs; I have found the limits of my eyes; but I have never been able to find the limits of my labour."
      • Mémorial de Sainte Hélène, Volume 6, p. 272

My question concerns it's proper placement on the page; precisely, whether it ought to be placed in the 'Quotes about' section or in the 'Quotes' section.

It is a sort of mixture of quote proper and quote about.

Thanks to all, IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 15:07, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I believe the proper section is "Quotes about", but you can then (if you like) "bold" the most relevant part – see, for example, Quotes about Sallust. ~ DanielTom (talk) 22:48, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I'm inclined to agree. Thanks for the response. IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 17:38, 11 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Gadgets inactive at present? edit

Someone stated that Hotcat was not working for them on my talk page, and I have noticed that the gadget for the clock and purge option in the corner of my window has not been working since some time yesterday, so I am assuming that at least these gadgets are not functioning on this wiki. Is anyone else encountering such problems? ~ Kalki·· 21:49, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

HotCat (the only gadget I use) is not working for me as well. ~ DanielTom (talk) 22:28, 8 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Test It just worked from me. —Justin (koavf)TCM 06:33, 9 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Gadgets are still not working for me. Anyone have any ideas? ~ UDScott (talk) 14:29, 14 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@UDScott: Have you posted to phab:? —Justin (koavf)TCM 14:31, 14 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Pardon my ignorance, but I don't even know what that is - or how to go about reporting an issue there. My expertise here is definitely not on the tech side. :-) Usually, if there is a large enough problem (or enough people report a problem on the VP, someone is able to find a fix. ~ UDScott (talk) 14:44, 14 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I've opened a ticket on phab. ~ UDScott (talk) 15:28, 14 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
...and that is --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 15:46, 14 August 2015 (UTC)[reply] displays all the gadgets with issues... --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 16:33, 14 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
If it appears that responses to T109076 thus far seem to be saying "so fix it yourself", this is because MediaWiki developers generally believe user editable configurations are not their responsibility. Cf. discussion at the "stalled" ticket T85433. Realistically, if hundreds of Wikis each have their own home-grown gadgets then the central developers are not in a position to manage and maintain them.

What happened in this case is that "Legacy gadgets" were recently deprecated by MediaWiki developers without much warning. This strikes me as very poor practice when they knew this was going to break all the gadgets. On the other hand, they don't really know who to notify – Wikiquote does not have a team of gadget maintainers who follow up on technical bulletins. We just have some users who copied gadgets here from other wikis, gadgets that worked at the time even if they had no idea how they work. Any assumption that the underlying infrastructure is stable, or at least maintains backward compatibility, would be naïve. ~ Ningauble (talk) 17:34, 14 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, thank you Ningauble - this was pretty much how it has gone - I'd be happy to try to fix the problem, but I don't really know how. And it does not appear we are getting much more help coming our way. So, back to the original question: how can we fix these to make them work again? ~ UDScott (talk) 17:44, 14 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Well, we could apply for a Foundation grant to hire a software engineer to fix it. (Just kidding, I would not expect that level of support. But competence is required.) ~ Ningauble (talk) 19:13, 16 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

@UDScott: Which one(s) are you trying to use? —Justin (koavf)TCM 03:11, 15 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Well, specifically the HotCat one, but the others are also useful - like the liveclock or the clear delete reasons, or the sysop flags, etc. I would ideally like to have them all back. I just find it a funny (and not in a good way) that when something is changed and breaks things, that there is not a better response when users ask about it. And just basically saying: "Fix it yourself" is not a good answer IMHO. ~ UDScott (talk) 20:27, 17 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@UDScott: Agreed. You may wish to copy User:Koavf/monobook.js to User:UDScott/monobook.js and see if that helps. —Justin (koavf)TCM 03:23, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Koavf: I tried it, but no dice. Still cannot use the gadgets. ~ UDScott (talk) 21:40, 20 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@UDScott: Which skin do you use? (By the way, if you use Template:Ping, I will see your response faster). —Justin (koavf)TCM 04:30, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I do not have much time to spend here presently, but just wish to note that the clock and purge function gadget is now working for me, and would like to thank whoever is responsible for having fixed that problem. ~ Kalki·· 12:58, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
That would be User:Kaldari, the Foundation employee who leads the Community Tech team, which has a remit touching on gadgets, bots, and such. Notwithstanding that this kind of fix is not really his job, and notwithstanding strenuous objections by some to using Phabricator for gadget-related tasks, he pitched in there to fix the problem.

Even though I don't use gadgets myself, I too am grateful for this support for our often overlooked community. ~ Ningauble (talk) 21:32, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

To clarify, the edit was [4] (it's not clear whether that was a volunteer action or a Community Tech team job action performed with wrong account). I encourage to actually test those gadgets though, because they might actually not be compatible with ResourceLoader. --Nemo 22:37, 28 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

VisualEditor News #4—2015 edit

Elitre (WMF), 22:28, 14 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Enforcement of Image Use Policy edit

I started a thread here on the Village Pump recently regarding the inappropriate use of images on the 'quote of the day' section of the main page. That thread can be viewed here: Symbols on the main page QOTD

Since that time the practice has continued, despite multiple users expressing great discontent and opposition, and the user responsible, Kalki, being informed that their actions are a violation of the Image use policy.

I understand policies here are to be taken lightly and as loose guides rather than strict rules, however the principles being violated are to my view quite important/fundamental, and their violation has in this case brought about a significant controversy among users.

Being unexperienced here I do not know how to take this further, but my suggestion is that Kalki be banned from adding images to the Main Page.

I think it is important that this issue be resolved as soon as possible. I ask more experienced users to help with direction on how to proceed further.

IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 06:19, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I thought we were making progress in the earlier thread, and am disappointed that it seems to have died out without coming to a resolution. BD2412 T 15:49, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Could the admins make suggestions about how the policy could be enforced? It seems possible that many editors have lost interest because all previous efforts at enforcing image policy here have gone nowhere. Macspaunday (talk) 16:54, 20 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I thought we were making regress in the earlier thread, where UDScott withdrew his support for the policy that the connection between images and quotes should be obvious and specific, and where BD2412 suggested the policy not apply to the main page. Both contributed substantially to formulating the policy, but now we seem to be right back where we were before the policy was even conceived. ~ Ningauble (talk) 22:47, 21 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Just one clarification: I did not withdraw any support for the policy in general. I was just making a comment specific to the QOTD page. In the end, as I have in the past, I do support the image use policy. ~ UDScott (talk) 18:22, 25 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Ok then, if I read more into your remark than was actually there then I stand corrected, and apologize for misinterpreting your statement.

I seem to have been misled by failing to notice the part of the WQ:IMAGE policy that somehow indicates "except on the Main Page". I may have overlooked this exception because I recall that when images were previously banned from the Main Page pending development of a policy[5][6], development of our current Image use policy was initiated the very next day with a straw poll [7], and image use on the Main Page did not resume until after the policy was adopted. I now recognize that some do not consider applicability of the policy to this page to be obvious and specific. ~ Ningauble (talk) 13:17, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Love the sarcasm...Fundamentally, I don't think we disagree. I guess I just haven't been as bothered by the images on the QOTD page as others. Yes, I understand that my position does not appear to be consistent and I fully admit this. But I fail to see how a changing viewpoint is such a horrible thing. In any case, do what you will regarding this topic - I will comment as I see appropriate and certainly support the consensus of the community. I do support the policy and in general wish to have relevance of images, but I see so many other problems on the site that I believe are more pressing. I will continue to work on these... ~ UDScott (talk) 13:37, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Being inconsistent or changing one's mind is not in itself a horrible thing, I just don't like the direction things have been going. If you feel this is not such a big deal I can respect that, but I don't think we fundamentally agree about it: when "Kalki's personal art project" now completely dominates the Main Page, often taking up nearly half of our most prominent and highly visited page, with an order of magnitude more space devoted to illustration of the quote than to the quote itself, I think it is literally a big deal. ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:32, 26 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand how to edit the Quote of the Day. Today's QOTD has this:  , a monad; although it is hard to see and potentially a mistake, it is fully unacceptable and ought to be removed; though I myself don't know how to edit the QOTD to remove it. Would anyone explain to me how to edit the QOTD? Also, User:Kalki, I urge you to see reason and obey the policy and will of the Wikiquote community. Also, other users must take a stronger stand here in my opinion; I am spending a lot of effort and thought trying to fix this problem but I lack the expertise to understand how to do so. It seems to me no one understands what the solution is which is why there is a lack of progress. Again I suggest banning User:Kalki from adding images to the QOTD. This can not continue, and its persistence is disheartening. Let us do something about this now. Is my suggestion feasible? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 02:46, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the monad image in particular, a cursory inspection of file usage shows it has been a frequent inclusion at QOTD for several years and has lately been featured on the Main Page QOTD every single day for more than a year.

Whether this is potentially a mistake – a very consistent error – or whether it reflects some sort of idée fixe, the difference is moot:  this seeming monomania clearly has absolutely nothing to do with the individual quotes. ~ Ningauble (talk) 13:07, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ningauble, I think there is strong majority in favour of improving the image use on the QOTD, but the problem is how to do so? Do you have any ideas as to how to proceed?
IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 18:44, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
It is very difficult to obtain consensus for sanctioning someone with such a long and extensive history of valuable contributions when it is only some of their activities are objectionable. I have been trying for years to improve this situation, but nothing had any lasting impact. If I think of a new idea with some prospect of working I will certainly bring it up. ~ Ningauble (talk) 19:16, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
You suggest it is difficult to achieve but is possible? I think banning image contribution solely for the 'quote of the day' section is a very mild restriction. Considering User:Kalki has received many complaints in the past (examples here: [8], [9]), I think it is a fully reasonable measure. My only uncertainty is how to achieve such a ban. What say you, Ningauble? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 22:42, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I don't mean to be pessimistic, but it has been tried before: the ban that was imposed "until such time as we have a consensus as to image use policy on the Main Page"[10] (full thread) lapsed (was ignored, not rescinded) after one year without developing a policy specific to the main page. Given that two prominent contributors to the general Image use policy that was adopted during that year are currently backing off from applying what it says to the Main Page, I am at a loss as to how to make anything stick.

I would vote to enforce the existing Image Policy on the Main page, would vote to hold the Main page to the same standards for citing sources as any other page, and would vote for some limitation on the size of the QotD presentation that currently dominates the page, but if a vote were called I doubt the community is ready to move on any of these. I am not saying it cannot be done, but I really do not know how to move it forward. I hope you or someone else will think of a way... ~ Ningauble (talk) 23:55, 22 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Ningauble, imagining there was a consensus supporting a ban on image contribution for Kalki on the Main Page, who would be able to enforce that? Also, is Kalki the only user with the ability to edit the Main Page QOTD? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 14:00, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It seems that administrator status is required to edit the QOTD? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 02:44, 25 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the Main Page and its components are protected because they are highly visible targets for vandalism.

Individual QotD pages are only protected on the day they are current on the main page and the days immediately before and after. In theory, this allows regular contributors to collaborate on developing the QotD presentation in advance, but this has not been happening in practice. ~ Ningauble (talk) 12:41, 25 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to restate my earlier proposition that we require that images not be repeated on the main page. Currently, Commons has more than 27 million media files available, mostly images. That is enough to have six previously unused images on the main page display every day for over 12 thousand years. I would also like to suggest that perhaps we should focus on positive quotes and images. We have enough quotes about Love, Peace, Hope, Happiness, and Friendship, for example, that we can go for quite a while without hitting on any negative themes. BD2412 T 18:25, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Discussion of images on the Main Page is becoming scattered and redundant. This thread is nominally about how, and implicitly whether, to enforce an existing policy in that context. Suggesting ideas for new or improved policies or guidelines is a Good Thing™, but it might be better to organize them in a manner that would better facilitate centralized discussion. How about a separate thread for brainstorming main page policy/guideline ideas (located on the Village Pump or another pertinent talk page such as that of the Main Page, or the Image use policy, or a sub-page thereof)? ~ Ningauble (talk) 20:14, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It's probably easier to just forbid images on the main page. I don't see what utility they have, and they clearly have a disutility in that they reduce accessibility especially on smaller screens. Even on desktop, in the current main page I have to press page down twice to reach essential links such as the "Main categories" section. Nemo 22:33, 28 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The current video game quotation limits are ridiculous compared to the leniency given to other mediums, they are often several times longer than movies yet don't even get to use as many quotes as movies. edit

Compare "Three quotes maximum per game. Recommended maximum length of quotes: seven lines by one character, ten lines of dialogue.", to some random electronic games like Final Fantasy VII and Metal Gear Solid for example have as much text to read as most books yet are supposed to have 3 quotes max, less than a film. The Elder Scrolls III: Morrowind has hundreds of books you can read in it, yet there's only 3 quotes on the page which reflect nothing of those books. Do you really want every video game page to look like the one for Morrowind where there's three quotes for something that's dozens of hours long just to read as a transcript? I would like to use more than 3 quotes from metal gear solid on the page for genetics. CensoredScribe (talk) 15:16, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There was never a consensus favoring that limitation; I have deleted it. We will need to come up with some kind of limitation, however. BD2412 T 15:21, 18 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

How can we improve Wikimedia grants to support you better? edit


The Wikimedia Foundation would like your feedback about how we can reimagine Wikimedia Foundation grants, to better support people and ideas in your Wikimedia project. Ways to participate:

Feedback is welcome in any language.

With thanks,

I JethroBT (WMF), Community Resources, Wikimedia Foundation. 05:20, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Merge Transamerica edit

Please, could you merge Transamerica and Transamerica (film), which deal about the same film? --Superchilum (talk) 14:30, 23 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

 Y Done ~ UDScott (talk) 18:10, 25 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Why was Hangul deleted? edit

I know hangul was speedily deleted and its reason : out of focus. But I take objection to this deletion. First, this article is not out of focus. Hunminjeongeum is one of the old name of hangul.(Also name of book which contain about hangul, too) Second, I have a mind to fix it, so I commended at its talk page. But you ignored it and deleted hangul. As a consequence, I insists that Hangul is restored. --LeJourdeStJ (talk) 22:37, 24 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Vote on prohibition of User:Kalki edit

I propose that the user Kalki be banned from adding images to the Main Page.

The reasons for such a prohibition have been expressed here: [11] Also, complaints have been brought against the image use of Kalki before, see here [12] and here [13].

Please place your vote below:

Support edit

Oppose edit

This person states, that "complaints have been brought against the image use of Kalki before" and cites a case where there is clear incomprehension by rather ignorant and thus easily confused people in a presentation I made in June 2011, in relation to a quote by William Styron, author of Sophies Choice, which included an image no longer present at the commons, of a person (arguably representing Humanity itself) crucified upon a Nazi swastika, as well as the relatively innocuous or reverent use of the ancient symbol of the swastika in ancient and modern systems of belief that have had nothing to do with the vile absolutist intolerance of Nazism, and its meticulous uses of legalisms to sanction many of its policies of extreme censorship, brutal oppression and suppression of any and all forms of opposition to its aims and methods, or even the presentation of rival ideas and ideals.

I find it significant and somewhat ironic that this effort to further the desires of some to meticulously suppress and control the good-faith contributions of others comes when the QOTD is on another one in which I used images of the times of Nazi oppressions, related to a quote of a person who witnessed the rise of Nazism in Germany in the 1930s:


I often feel that worse than the most fiendish Nazis were those Germans who went along with the persecution of the Jews not because they really disliked them but because it was the thing.

~ Christopher Isherwood ~



One of the links in this QOTD is to the page for Conformity — where I now note an image which had been added by someone else, related to the notions of people impelled to being "cogs in a machine" has been removed by this person. It had no quote as a caption, but the relationsip of the image to the subject is one I believe obvious to anyone of even average intelligence, and I have now added one. I would like to work on that page and many others far more, but I especially doubt I will have the time anytime soon, as I must soon attend to responding to many issues which have arisen here.

The other incident mentioned is one in 2012 which impelled me to DECIDE to stop even bothering to add images to the layout at all, I thought perhaps for a month or so, because the sufficiently expressing the levels and extent of contempt I had for the attitudes and activities of several people at that time, and indications of the reasons for this, would have taken me far more time than I had to provide to it. I actually ended up not making any effort to return to adding images to the pages for over a year, so much contempt and disgust did I have for the vile situation that was then evident, which I consider to have been one of the most disgusting and contemptible periods of vile disregard to the fundamental principles of the wikis, and not only the overt harassment of me and my efforts at contributing to this wiki.

I found it appalling that others apparently found it convenient for various reasons to accept and even support some forms of this harassment, which continued sporadically for some years. IF some are looking for some clear reasons why there is not more involvement on this wiki, in recent years I believe that the extent of the deplorable and disgusting amounts of abuse and slander I generally received for some years, after defying what I considered ill-informed and ultimately unethical demands upon me, which I have never yet even attempted to fully explicate to others.

THIS is the layout which was summarily CENSORED and removed at that time, I believe primarily as a means of harassing me, and not from any sincere or even rationally justifiable objections to the use of the images.


I went down to the sacred store
Where I'd heard the music years before
But the man there said the music wouldn't play
And in the streets the children screamed
The lovers cried and the poets dreamed
But not a word was spoken
The church bells all were broken
And the three men I admire most
The Father, Son and Holy Ghost
They caught the last train for the coast
The Day the Music Died.

~ Don McLean ~



I do not have time to indicate right now many of the very strong reasons I have long objected to what I have at times openly declared to be movements towards arrogant and presumptuous authoritarian policies of control and constraint of the editing and presentation options here, as mild or "politely expressed", or ineffective as some of those efforts have often been.

I do not have time to further indicate many things at present, but I will note this: I have been the primary editor of the QOTD and its presentation layout since 2003, in the earliest days of the wiki, and though there have been some relatively minor conflicts which have arisen a very few times in all those years, I believe most people can and do recognize that I have been thoughtful, considerate and created often interesting compositions of presentations relevant to the quotes selected. The main page has been regularly observed by tens of thousands of people daily for many years and there have been very few incidents of any significant controversy, except from a VERY FEW editors here, most of whom have regularly objected to various forms of image use on any of the pages at all, and some to almost all forms of them.

There are issues I will try to address further, after I return, and I expect it will take weeks of contentions before resolutions are likely to be reached, but I must be leaving soon, and even when I return will probably take time to check some facts and confirm some aspects of my memory of past events and occurrences, before making note of them. ~ Kalki·· 00:00, 27 August 2015 (UTC) + tweaks[reply]

Non-voting comments and discussion edit

  • I don't think it's appropriate to have regulations that apply only to a single user. It's obvious that the images and symbols on the QOTD only serve to discredit this project, but a regulation directed against a single person isn't the way to go about fixing this, and would also serve to discredit the project. - Macspaunday (talk) 13:41, 27 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • My initial reaction was to oppose this motion, for two reasons related to points already raised by others. Firstly, as BD2412 notes, we would be much better off if we had a clear consensus about content of the main page. My reading of the current discussion at #Symbols on the main page QOTD above, linked in the motion opening this thread, does not show a solid consensus. (Summary nose count: IOHANNVSVERVS and I support applying the image use policy on relevance as it stands, and Macspaunday appears to implicitly do so, while DanielTom remarks about subjectivity and bias in the choice of pictures. Kalki opposes the image use policy, while BD2412 suggests it should only be applied loosely and UDScott does not object to this sort of image use.) Secondly, as Macspaunday suggests, framing this as a sanction against an individual contributor is a dubious proposition. In the absence of clear consensus on a policy that is being violated, or solid evidence of specifically identified personal misconduct, a personal topic ban is not appropriate. (Note that it was not a personal topic ban when image use on the main page was previously suspended pending development of a policy.)

    However, I am beginning to think otherwise, that there may be an objective case of actual user misconduct involved. Note that Kalki is engaged in an ongoing edit war over tagging the Main Page with a favorite symbol every day. Note also in particular today's QotD as originally posted, which not only includes multiple images of no relevance to depicting what the quote says, including edit warring with a math symbol often appearing in Kalki's signature tag (Unicode U+2A00: "n-ary circled dot operator"), but which also prominently features a doodle of Kalki's own creation, the meaning of which may exist only in the creator's mind.

    Edit warring clearly is personal misconduct. Tagging the main page like a dog marking its territory and splashing it with graffiti may also rise to the level of unacceptable behavior. I am reserving my !vote for the time being, but that is the way I am leaning. ~ Ningauble (talk) 15:40, 28 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

    Kalki's response. Did you notice that embarrassing "doodle" has the ⨀ symbol too? ~ DanielTom (talk) 17:52, 28 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    (I am not entirely sure that is the same person.) Yes I noticed, which is what prompted me to investigate where the heck it came from. ~ Ningauble (talk) 20:41, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • Observing that this "doodle" is not an isolated incident, I have initiated a separate thread to discuss #Exhibiting user artworks on Wikiquote Main Page below. I am inclined to think it may be an abuse of administrative privileges (i.e. editing protected pages) to use the Main Page for exhibiting one's own artworks. ~ Ningauble (talk) 20:41, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • On the topic of personal misconduct, I would add that the user continually engages in name-calling (see above - "ignorant and thus easily confused", "ill-informed and ultimately unethical") and assumption of bad faith ("THIS is the layout which was summarily CENSORED and removed at that time, I believe primarily as a means of harassing me, and not from any sincere or even rationally justifiable objections to the use of the images."). The user (also above) compared the idea of removing images from the main page to the rise of the Nazi Party.

      "We should develop a policy" is a common refrain, but what would that policy look like? How would it be developed? Would it be followed? I would propose a series of votes on the topic among regular contributors (of which I am not one - I'm just a concerned user), starting with "Should we limit the use of images on the front page?" If that determination is Yes, then have people submit options (based on number, size, location), and vote on those. I don't know if that is the ideal way to develop a policy, but it at least has steps that can be followed and would maybe be less likely to fizzle out than an open-ended procedure. TreeRol (talk) 13:30, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

25.000th article edit

Wikiquote seem to have passed the 25.000 articles. If I am not mistaken the 25.000th lemma is Bloodline (TV series) written by an (North-Irish) anonymous user, whose ip address is located around Belfast. -- Mdd (talk) 22:51, 28 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And 2,000,000 edits (which is even more impressive). ~ DanielTom (talk) 23:41, 28 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Exhibiting user artworks on Wikiquote Main Page edit

Reviewing recent developments in light of other discussions above, it appears I have been missing out on opportunities afforded by this wiki for users to exhibit their own artworks in a highly visible gallery with several thousand visitors per day.

1)  May I exhibit my own artworks on the Wikiquote Main Page? There appears to be ample precedent for doing so. Here are a couple dozen examples:
2)  If I may, how do I avail myself of this opportunity? Do I just upload my artworks to Commons and then insert them into the Main Page wherever and whenever I like?
2a)  And, not incidentally, how would this opportunity for exhibiting one's own artworks in the Main Page gallery be exercised by other users who do not happen to be able to edit protected pages?
3)  If I may not, then why is anyone else allowed to use Wikiquote's Main Page as an art gallery for exhibiting their own works? Is this some sort of "freedom of expression" where some users are more equal than others?

The foregoing are not just rhetorical questions: I am quite serious. Wikiquote's Main Page is becoming "Wiki-art-exhibition" (with one quote and some links to quotations thrown in). If we are going to allow this then everybody should be able to exhibit in the free art gallery that anyone can edit. If we are not going to allow this then it should stop now. What say you? ~ Ningauble (talk) 20:36, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • I agree, this is serious and problematic. It's one thing to use existing images to illustrate (or even just decorate) the presentation of a quote; it is quite another to create a bank of meaningless compilation images for this purpose. This makes me reconsider the degree to which main page images should relate to the quote itself. BD2412 T 22:10, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    Don't worry, Kalki will explain why they are not meaningless. ~ DanielTom (talk) 22:17, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
User:Ningauble writes, "May I exhibit my own artworks on the Wikiquote Main Page?  …  The foregoing are not just rhetorical questions: I am quite serious."

Do you have any artwork in particular you were thinking about?

I wouldn't mind seeing some of my art displayed.  E.g.:


Thinking meat!  You’re asking me to believe in thinking meat!”
~ Terry Bisson ~
~ "They're Made Out of Meat" ~
That bit of digital art was created back in 2009 and was directly inspired by Bisson's short story.  (In fact, the art even has the same title as the short story.)

I copylefted the image, so if you wish to display it, you're free to do so; you needn't even ask me in advance.

Cheers, allixpeeke (talk) 23:01, 1 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As an admin on a Wikimedia project Ningauble of course actually seems to be merely facetiously adopting the naivety and tone and rhetoric of a rather sarcastic newbie. But of course, those who actually do seek to do some kind of work of some EXPRESSIVE or INDICATIVE nature on various themes are certainly welcome to upload images or other forms of work relevant to them at the Wikimedia Commons, with proper licensing releases under those devised by the Creative Commons (such as have been used both there and here for some years now). If anyone believes them relevant to some specific quotes or theme pages on this wiki they can certainly post them on various pages of this wiki, and even suggest them for use with some of the Qoutes of the Day.
Thank you, allixpeeke, for the observation of the fact that ALL individuals are welcome to provide what they can in devotions to the presentation of ideas here, and the general aims of serving humanity, and the wikimedia wikis, with whatever means they have. The wikis certainly were not formed with the intentions of either serving or promoting the desires of anyone more inclined to find ways to constrain and control the good faith efforts of others than to provide helpful indications of the worth of many ideas and the efforts to present them.
I sincerely believe that efforts of people to seek ways rigorously suppress rather than permit and welcome expressive work in presentation of ideas, is generally not welcome on healthy wikis, or healthy communities where various long established ideals of Justice, Unity, Liberty and Love of Humanity tend to prevail, by whatever systems of ethics they might be framed.
I do not have time to present an extensive response to some of the very flawed and facetious rhetoric and observations made here at this time, but probably will do so within the next day or so, and might have time to address a larger range of issues that have been raised on this page within a few days. So it goes Blessings. ~ Kalki·· 00:23, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
As others have expressed, I too find this quite disturbing. When we were just talking about existing images, that was one thing, but the fact that such user-created images were used many times is another. Especially since they were used by someone with special privileges to edit these pages. This clearly smacks of inserting a POV and is not something that I believe we should allow on the site. Despite Kalki's protestations about the suppression of ideas and free expression, I do believe there are some limits that our community accepts and expects - and this behavior, to me, clearly goes beyond those limits. ~ UDScott (talk) 01:08, 2 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]
I had much less time yesterday to attend to things here than I had thought I would, had far less time at home than usual, and I know I might have even less time today, but I believe that some of the issues raised here in this section have actually provided me greater means of indicating and elucidating many of the problems that have been growing more apparent to me for some time, and which I will earnestly seek to explicate within the coming days, weeks and months. I do expect to have a great deal of time within the next month to respond more fully here to many issues, but will attempt to respond more directly to primarily this one within the next few days. Right now I have less than an hour before I must leave again, and have many other things to attend to than those here — though I will attempt to do maybe as much as a half-hour's work here before I leave again. ~ Kalki·· 11:49, 3 September 2015 (UTC)[reply]