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User talk:BD2412

Status: Active. bd2412 T (e)

Bot flagEdit

I don't have a problem with temporarily granting oneself the bot flag while running a script (==Sourced== → ==Quotes== using AWB), but it does not appear to be working as intended in this instance.

The edits are also marked as minor and for some reason, probably erroneous, the system is only recognizing one flag at a time, the "minor" one. When I select "Hide bots" on RC these edits still show up, but when I select "Hide minor edits" they do not. I suggest using one flag or the other, but not both at once.

I also notice that you made a few unscripted edits while your account was configured with the bot flag (e.g. [1], [2], [3]). These should not have suppressed from RC as bot edits.

Take care. ~ Ningauble (talk) 16:33, 1 September 2016 (UTC)

  • Sorry, couldn't wait. BD2412 T 16:39, 1 September 2016 (UTC)


I'm currently going through Francis Fawkes's notes on his The Argonautics of Apollonius Rhodius, and just borrowed the citation/note structure you used in The Iliad of Homer (Alexander Pope) (borrowed, in turn, from John Bartlett – learning from the pros :). There is still some work to be done, but I'd appreciate it if you could add a link from the Wikipedia article Apollonius of Rhodes (external links section) to Wikiquote. It's routine and you have independent reasons to do it, so it doesn't violate any policy. Of course there is no particular hurry. Cheers and thanks ~ DanielTom (talk) 23:57, 5 September 2016 (UTC)

Done, cheers! BD2412 T 00:06, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

'Off-topic' at the v. p.Edit

You have some fucking nerve to enclose my arguments against another user arbitrarily editing *my own posts* as an 'off-topic' section, and additionally doing so in a way that makes it seem that it was I who started the whole issue. ~~~~ —This unsigned comment is by (talkcontribs) .

I enclosed the section that I enclosed because the last comment before that section was relevant to the bolding discussion. I hatted everything not relevant to the bolding discussion. BD2412 T 21:16, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
You enclosed a comment of mine explaining my being forced to leave the discussion in the middle of it lest the other user continue derailing it, plus a comment of mine regarding implementation of the idea in question. (I reinserted it outside the section already, though.) ~~~~
Good. BD2412 T 22:37, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
'Convenient' is a better term. ~~~~
Your points on the bolding question are valid. With respect to the signature, why not just conform to the norms of the community you are trying to work with? Better yet, create an account. BD2412 T 22:50, 9 September 2016 (UTC)
Speaking of accuracy of detection of various properties of quotes, I know this has been discussed, but it betrays the need for semantic markup. Again, such as famous quotes being marked up <span class='famous'/> (if not outright by templates, {{famous|They say that...}}, but I imagine that would be a performace issue). In fact, I see that the visual editor still translates ''' to presentational <b> by default. That's wrong -- any visual editor should, of course, solely offer various *senses* of markup, such as 'famous', 'offensive', 'unsourced' et c., instead of forcing users to signify those using the same simple tag. This way there would never be any ambiguity involved with article restructurization as by a bot. ~~~~
I try to avoid using visual editor interfaces as much as possible. I don't think we mark 'offensive' quotes at all. Unsourced quotes should not be included on a page. Any that are there should be moved to the talk page for sourcing. If they are not sourced in a reasonable time, they should then be deleted. BD2412 T 00:58, 10 September 2016 (UTC)

I actually realized that I used 'visual' to just refer to the button interface, not even WYSIWYG.

That said, my point was generally about information loss. In other words, any valid interpretation of a type of formatting that any user ever thinks of should join a list of qualifiers, for other users to conveniently choose from for new quotes. As soon as a user associates (say) italics with (say) uncertainty, threat, silence, breaking the fourth wall, imagination, title, subtitle, comment, transliteration issue, whatever, those descriptors should be formalized and offered via an interface, so that italics itself is disambiguated more and more, ideally into total disuse (= complete identification/formalization of all possible meanings of it). But this is just tagging. At the end of the day, databases like Wikidata should take over completely, over all Wikimedia projects, and compilation of raw data into user-readable English prose should only be done on the user's own computer as via CSS, so that from knowledge like the proverbial 'country#32-city#8472-x#213-y#843' 'United Kingdom is a country in the northern hemisphere whose capital is...' is neatly generated. Raw continuous text, which is Mediawiki's core datatype, is a grossly flawed format for knowledge. We must learn to unadapt out of it.

But it is this that's getting off-topic. ~~~~

If it were up to me, we would have a separate page for every quote, and categorize them by author, subject, year work, and keywords, but the community does not prefer that approach. BD2412 T 02:21, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
Absolutely. All databases should be atomized like that. Of course, the present Wikiquote structure can still be considered atomic, in the sense that a parser could (if unreliably and slowly) distinguish one quote from another through just parsing wiki lists and fishing them out, but it's nowhere as robust as a true database if we, for instance, want to run some big statistical comparison of all quotes. Not to mention that ordinary lists of many quotes would be still possible through transclusion. ~~~~
In fact, the slash format (which I hardly see on Wikimedia for some reason) would work so nicely.

* {{John_Doe/Autobiography/on_this}}
* {{John_Doe/Autobiography/on_that}}
* {{John_Smith/My_Debut/on_something_something}}

(And then, my syntax is rusty, but perhaps we could have things like {{compact|John_Doe/on_x}} or {{full|John_Doe/on_x}} or {{qotd|John_Doe/on_x}}, any of which could follow or preface the quote itself with any of its medatada, residing at {{John_Doe/on_x/creation_context}} or {{John_Doe/on_x/collaborations}} for instance. ~~~~)
In short, you're too smart for this shit, fuck Wikiquote and start your own wiki. ~~~~
With patience, my approach will eventually prevail. BD2412 T 03:12, 10 September 2016 (UTC)
I genuinely wish you that. Good day. ~~~~

Hillary Clinton againEdit

I added a couple of images highlighting her vote for the invasion of Iraq and her opposition to gay marriage back when it mattered. Now I'm afraid the page looks a bit unbalanced. I don't really like much of what she says, so it's hard for me to choose what her best quotes are (for example, I like her "Gay rights are human rights" quote, but it sounds [as is] hypocritical). If you could add at least a couple images with more positive quotes, that'd be great. ~ DanielTom (talk) 03:37, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Frankly, it seems like more than I have time to address right at the moment. I will try to get to that this weekend. BD2412 T 13:39, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
Insofar as the article already has a similar portrait at the top of the page, it would appear that the sole purpose of adding this image is, as stated, to highlight the quote. This is not neutral.

The caption itself is cherry-picked from a context in which she expressly opposed an amendment stating that marriage should be between a man and a woman. When someone says, in effect, "there is something to what you say, but I am opposed", as thoughtful legislators sometimes do, quoting the "something to what you say" out of context, as if it is a statement of support, is dishonest. Even the cited Breitbart article, despite its spin, had the decency to provide more context than singling out the captioned sentence. ~ Ningauble (talk) 14:08, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

For the record, the quote in question is Hillary saying "I believe that marriage is not just a bond but a sacred bond between a man and a woman". Why is it dishonest to highlight this? It isn't. It was her position and what she believed in. (Or, more likely, what the polls told her most voters believed in back then.) Her opposition to gay marriage when it was still unpopular is emphatically clear, see this 2002 interview. ~ DanielTom (talk) 14:33, 27 September 2016 (UTC)
In tonight's debate, she essentially admitted to having made the "you need both a public and a private position" remark. ~ DanielTom (talk) 03:12, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
Frankly, I didn't watch it. BD2412 T 04:00, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

Admin inactivityEdit

Greetings BDA,

Decided to peek in after almost 10 years and happened upon this discussion. Looks like I got the email about it a year ago but apparently didn't notice, otherwise I would have made an appearance.

Just wanted to let you know that if admin inactivity becomes a concern here again the community is more than welcome to remove my admin flag with no arguments from me. The chances of me resuming contributions here are astronomically small and any reservations I might have had on the matter would have been brought up when I was unflagged on the 'pedia.

Nice to see another '05 fossil still contributing. Doubt anyone remembers me around these parts but you're one of the few users I still recognize instantly.

Cheers, -- JaxlTalk 01:21, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

Well, I wouldn't put it past you to decide to stop by and fiddle around here a bit. ;-) BD2412 T 01:24, 25 October 2016 (UTC)
What I wouldn't give to have that kind of time again. Cheers, -- JaxlTalk 01:33, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

The Odyssey of Homer (Alexander Pope)Edit

Info: "The translation of the Odyssey was shared with Elijah Fenton and William Broome, to whom half the books were allotted, Fenton taking I, IV, XIX and XX, and his colleague II, VI, VIII, XI, XII, XVI, XVIII and XXIII, while Pope translated the rest and assumed, in addition, the task of revision." George Sampson, The Concise Cambridge History of English Literature (1970), Ch. IX, p. 385.

A note could be added stating,

Note: Elijah Fenton translated Books I, IV, XIX and XX; William Broome translated Books II, VI, VIII, XI, XII, XVI, XVIII and XXIII.

(And that Pope revised these, and translated the rest.) What do you think? ~ DanielTom (talk) 23:47, 26 October 2016 (UTC) P.S. Here it reads: "Pope organized, supervised, and corrected every stage of the undertaking, &c." and, indeed, Broome himself speaks of "the care and judgment of Mr. Pope, by whose hand every sheet was corrected" (my emphasis). Your power of synthesis is needed. ~ DanielTom (talk) 23:59, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Sounds good. BD2412 T 00:44, 27 October 2016 (UTC)
Too powerful... Okay, I tried this. (The last clause doesn't sound good to me; you are welcome to change it.) ~ DanielTom (talk) 01:03, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

Copyright questionEdit

Hi BD2412. Could this be considered a copyright infringement? Basically, I have so far selected ~100 quotes by Apollonius of Rhodes, mostly from my own reading of the Argonautica and ancient commentaries on it. The only dictionary of quotations (that I could find) that includes Apollonius is this one published last year, from pages 67 to 69. Question: If I bold the quotes by Apollonius that appear in that book as the most significant/famous, can that be considered a copyright infringement? The presentation is different, and the book uses different translations from the ones I used, but now that I think of it, the selection itself should be protected by copyright. Is it then a question of fair use? What do you think? ~ DanielTom (talk) 13:57, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

If the initial selection was not copied from another source, I don't see how it could be a problem to later point out which entries from that initial selection were also in the selections of that other source. However, to be even more on the safe side, find a few other compilations containing quotes by the same author (if possible, see if there are any in the public domain), and indicate for each quote all compilations that have also selected it. BD2412 T 14:06, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. The problem is, I can't find any others. Even Harbottle's exhaustive dictionary of quotations contains no quotes by Apollonius of Rhodes at all. The quotes selected in A Dictionary of Classical Greek Quotations are of course often quoted in other books, and academic papers, but not in a systematic fashion. I think I'll remove the bold text, if somewhat regretfully. ~ DanielTom (talk) 14:24, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
Also look under "Apollonius Rhodius" - I can't tell if this book is a collection of quotes or whole works. This one contains a single quote, but that's something. This one appears to promise some, although it is not readily searchable. BD2412 T 14:36, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
Thanks again. I wish I could browse that first link, but can't. Your second link is, I believe, the same as this one, which does contain the often quoted and very beautiful passage of Jason and Medea's meeting in secret. Unfortunately, the last book you mention does the opposite of promising quotes by Apollonius Rhodius! I'll come back to this when I have more time. ~ DanielTom (talk) 15:10, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
Oops, yes the third one promises to exclude. Results of a hasty search! BD2412 T 15:22, 22 September 2017 (UTC)
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