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User talk:DanielTom

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All I know is that it's not a genuine quoteEdit

The unexamined life is not worth living.

Re. this edit to the Socrates article:  Famous, yes, but bogus. Apart from the fact that this is actually Plato using Socrates in a fictional sense, it is a horrible translation of Plato's Republic. See discussion at Talk:Socrates#"As for me, all I know is that I know nothing" and the Wikipedia article about this well-known saying that is derived from Plato's account of Socrates. Note that the latter does not even mention The Republic, to which it is attributed here – it is a totally bogus attribution.

What would you think about moving this "quote" to the misattributed section? ~ Ningauble (talk) 17:22, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

OK I moved "All I know is that I know nothing" to the misattributed section. DanielTom's point is still valid, that a more famous quote should be first, so I put "The unexamined life is not worth living" as caption for the first image. ~ Peter1c (talk) 21:19, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

@Ningauble: Wow, I did not know that! @Peter1c: Thanks for fixing it. ~ DanielTom (talk) 22:10, 2 November 2016 (UTC)


Thank you for removing that bullshit "mace" quote from the D Trump article! I knew I was forgetting something after I removed it from the I Trump article!

Damn, that's embarrassing. I could have sworn that was a legitimate source. Ah well. DragonflySixtyseven (talk) 06:47, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

No problem. ~ DanielTom (talk) 12:45, 27 November 2016 (UTC)
Many otherwise reliable publications run quotable quotes columns that are completely unreliable. This sort of filler material is neither original reportage nor properly cited research. It has always seemed bizarre to me that the editorial standards of legitimate publishers permit it, but it is a well established tradition. Reader beware! ~ Ningauble (talk) 13:12, 27 November 2016 (UTC)

Mr TrumpEdit

Today, Mr Trump stated that burning the American flag should be punished by "perhaps loss of citizenship or year in jail".

I feel that such an extreme statement, indicative as it is of Mr Trump's overall philosophy of government, freedom of expression, and the validity of the American Constitution, should have greater prominence on the Wikiquote repository than simply being shoved at the bottom of the list of things he said in 2016. (And if you want to argue that it's not indicative of his overall philosophy, why did he say it?) I propose that this be made the caption of one of the images. Which would you prefer? DragonflySixtyseven (talk) 14:54, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

Why don't you add the quote along with a new image? ~ DanielTom (talk) 15:13, 29 November 2016 (UTC)

"Michael Scott Gallegos" reviewEdit

I hate to ask for favors, but if you have a few minutes to look at Michael Scott Gallegos and feel that it falls within the requirements of the Wikiquote community to be retained, I would appreciate a vote to keep the article. I understand that if you do not believe that the article is worthy of retaining, you will not be able to vote in its favor. Sorry for the late notice, but the vote closes: 18:00, 15 December 2016. Thank you for your consideration of this matter, and for all of the good works that you continually contribute to the Wkiquote project. ELApro (talk) 03:24, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

I left a comment there, don't know if it will help or hurt. (I rarely, if ever, !vote to delete articles other users worked hard to create – but understand that admins sometimes need to be more relentless.) ~ DanielTom (talk) 11:35, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Your time, your opinions and your contributions are much appreciated. Thank you once again. ~ ELApro (talk) 13:55, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Apollonius of RhodesEdit

Hi DanielTom. Just wanted to say κῦδος for the Apollonius of Rhodes article. ~ Peter1c (talk) 22:51, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Peter1c. :) DanielTom (talk) 23:10, 6 January 2017 (UTC)

By the way, I don't know Greek, Peter1c. I wish I did. What about you – are you taking Greek classes at divinity school? (If you don't mind me asking, of course – just thought you might like to read the New Testament in its original language.) My favorite quote from the New Testament is,

  • The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.[1]

(Luke 17:20–21 KJV), but ἐντὸς ("within") is often translated as "among" or "in your midst". This is consequential because the first translation makes Jesus sound wise, while the others make him sound egomaniacal and delusional (from my perspective).

The Greek alphabet is easy, but learning vocabulary (and grammar) takes too much time and energy for me, at least for now (John Ogilby, the translator of Homer, began to learn Greek at fifty-four). So I have to rely on translations. There's only one translation into Portuguese of the Argonautica (from the 19th century) – which has a beautifully written introduction and many valuable notes, but archaic language. Of those into English, Francis Fawkes's translation is probably the most poetical, but suffers from the same problem (antiquated words). The Loeb translation is more readily understood, but also more than a century old. For Wikiquote purposes, E. V. Rieu's translation (the one I used the most) is nearly perfect because he – like Robert Fagles, another modern translator – seems to have paid special attention to famous passages, which are not always well rendered in translations of long poems. I was only disappointed with his rendering of the famous simile:

  • Her heart fluttered within her, restless as a patch of sunlight dancing up and down on a wall as the swirling water poured into a pail reflects it.

which in the Loeb translation is more faithfully rendered as:

  • And fast did her heart throb within her breast, as a sunbeam quivers upon the walls of a house when flung up from water, which is just poured forth in a caldron or a pail may be; and hither and thither on the swift eddy does it dart and dance along.

(E. V. Rieu evidently thought he could improve upon Apollonius by omitting the mention of the "caldron", as Virgil did, but that goes beyond the duties of a translator.)

Lastly, he sometimes (I should say apparently) doesn't realize the full potential of certain passages. E.g., the description of Medea's reaction to Jason's words:

  • Thus he spake, honouring her; and she cast her eyes down with a smile divinely sweet; and her soul melted within her, uplifted by his praise, and she gazed upon him face to face. (Loeb translation)

is rendered by Rieu as:

  • Jason's homage melted Medea. Turning her eyes aside she smiled divinely and then, uplifted by his praise, she looked him in the face.

(Maybe he thought "her soul melted within her" too commonplace in ancient Greek poetry, having previously translated Homer's Iliad and Odyssey – I can't be sure.)

In any case, I'm very happy to have his translation. (I got it as a Christmas gift.) Cheers ~ DanielTom (talk) 21:00, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Hi DanielTom. I noticed that you drew on multiple translations in creating the page, and I was also impressed with the references to earlier influences like Homer and later authors influenced by the poem like Virgil. I took one year of Greek, which is just enough to learn all the noun and verb forms ("morphologies" as our teacher liked to call them). One year is enough to be able to sit down with a text and a dictionary and understand it. If you wanted to do it on your own, all you need in Hansen and Quinn's Intensive Course. Some of my colleagues in classes here have enough vocabulary to sight read Greek without a dictionary, but I don't expect to ever reach that level. For New Testament, the software tools and online counterparts like will analyze the word forms for you, so you could do exegesis and write papers without even knowing all the morphologies. Regarding ἐντὸς in Lk 17:21, do you see "The Kingdom is among you" as egomaniacal because it would be Jesus equating himself with the Kingdom, as if to say, "I am among you, therefore the Kingdom is among you"? That would make sense. Another way of interpreting "The Kingdom is among you" is to say that the interlocutors of Jesus are living in the Kingdom already, but they just don't recognize it, because they devote their attention to idols and worldly rulers and allow the way they look at the world and each other to be determined by the values of the world rather than living by the true teaching of the Law and the Prophets (as Jesus interprets it). Translating ἐντὸς as "among" gives the sense of what we call realized eschatology, where the Kingdom isn't just in the future, but in the present, and not just inside individuals, but also in relationships among individuals insofar as they are guided by right interpretation of Law and Prophets rather than by the world and its rulers. I think reading "within" and "among" for ἐντὸς both evoke a useful idea. When we are alone contemplating God, His Kingdom is within us. When two or more of us gather together in the name of God (or in ecumenical and interfaith settings, in the name of kindness, awareness, justice, mercy, virtue, truth, etc.), then the Kingdom of God is among us. ~ Peter1c (talk) 16:45, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Hi back Peter1c. I think you covered all the bases, and agree with most of what you say. I've been busy this week, but should have thanked you sooner for your thoughtful response (and book recommendation). You gave me much to think about. Take care, and best of luck with your studies. ~ DanielTom (talk) 12:59, 13 January 2017 (UTC)

P.S. I'm way out of my league here, but your explanation of "realized eschatology" made me go back to Bart D. Ehrman's Forgery and Counterforgery, which deals in part with eschatology (e.g., section "The Theology of 2 Thessalonians", pp. 163 ff.). Again, knowledge of Greek is essential for many of these passages. I did some research regarding "ἐντὸς", and found this comment by Ehrman (who, as you can tell, is my "go-to" expert on the New Testament):

  • Luke 17:21-22 does not say the Kingdom is within individuals. It says it is "in your midst" – []i.e., in your presence. For Luke, Jesus manifested the kingdom during his public ministry. It has to mean that (from the Greek) because otherwise Jesus is telling his enemies the Pharise[e]s that the Kingdom of God is inside of *them* [–] which he certainly didn't think.

But I think it is fair to say that Jesus (like all enlightened individuals) gave great importance to the present moment, as is evident in his (probably immoral) teaching "Take no thought for the morrow" (which, if interpreted literally, would do away with savings, and hence investment and prosperity). Actually, to be even fairer to Jesus, the evil of his teaching is alleviated by the previous verse: "seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you" (Matthew 6:33 KJV, emphasis mine). To me, this sounds like a professor telling you not to worry about grades: study first, and good grades come naturally (as a by-product). ~ DanielTom (talk) 19:23, 16 January 2017 (UTC)

Share your experience and feedback as a Wikimedian in this global surveyEdit

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Do you have a calendar?

Do you understand that the page was created before she was confirmed?

Do you understand that those are the most common BDV quotes I found? Everyone was talking about how her influence-buying line and her grizzly line. I tracked down their sources and put them in. Isn't that what's supposed to be done?

Do you understand that I don't participate in your country's electoral bullshit, so I'm not 'opposition' ? Doesn't your neck hurt? DragonflySixtyseven (talk) 19:49, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Re. "I don't participate in your country's electoral bullshit" – relax and take a deep breath. You don't know what my country is. Now compare your biased intro, "Betsy DeVos is an American lobbyist", with Wikipedia's (at the time): "[Betsy DeVos] is an American businesswoman, philanthropist, and noted political campaign contributor". Once you get over your neck pain and read my message again, you'll realize I only complained about the intro being biased ("Very biased intro (fixed by an admin)"), not the quotes. ~ DanielTom (talk) 20:01, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
How is it 'biased' to not go into detail? I wasn't sure what she did for a living, I knew she was involved in lobbying, and "lobbyist" is accurate. If you find something that you consider insufficiently detailed, expand it. DragonflySixtyseven (talk) 20:27, 10 February 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, sure. ~ DanielTom (talk) 20:31, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

Ovid quotation?Edit

Salve, I found this quotation on Ovid's talk page and I wonder if you recognize it?

"The high-spirited man may indeed die, but he will not stoop to meanness. Fire, though it may be quenched, will not become cool."

IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 00:12, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

"From the Hitopadesa" (see here, p. 157). Vale. ~ DanielTom (talk) 00:35, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
You're right; see here: Hitopadesha How did you find that so quickly? IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 01:40, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Trade secret: simply type "The high-spirited man may indeed die" into Google. ~ DanielTom (talk) 10:35, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Laudant quod non intelleguntEdit

Unrelatedly, I want to share something with you:

ignorantes enim damnant quod non intellegunt
stulti autem doctorum, laudant quod non intellegunt

IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 21:56, 26 April 2017 (UTC)

Cf. "When Socrates had read, as authors note, | A certain book that Heraclitus wrote, | Deep in its matter and obscure beside, | Ask'd his opinion of it, he replied, | «All that I understand is good and true, | And what I don't is, I believe, so too.»" —John Byrom, "Socrates's Reply, Concerning Heraclitus's Writings" in Miscellaneous Poems (1773). (Socrates was no fool.) ~ DanielTom (talk) 23:04, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
I'm not sure you understand my intended meaning. The example of Socrates laudans quod non intellegit is an interesting thought, but I had in mind Disumbrationism and the Sokal hoax as examples of "laudant quod non intellegunt".
"The ignorant condemn what do they do not understand.
While educated fools, what they do not understand, may praise."
Also, consider this variation of the Latin: soli autem stulti doctorum, laudant quod non intellegunt
IOHANNVSVERVS (talk) 07:10, 14 May 2017 (UTC)
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