This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Ninth Doctor page.

This article falls within a proposed limits on quotations policy.

The subject of this article is a television show, and as a result, the proposal would set a limitation of one quote for less than 30 minutes, two quotes for 30 minute shows, and five quotes for 60 minute shows (see our TV policy for shows of other lengths).

If you would like to add another quote to the page, you should consider whether to remove one that is already there in order to keep within the bounds of fair use of copyright material.
For reference, the length of this work is: 60 min.

Trimming edit

Well, since this page has been tagged for copyright review for a while now, I'm gonna take the liberty of trimming some of the quotes myself, as no one else seems to be doing it.

Dunno who started the process but all episodes have been trimmed to fit wikiquote's standards. Teyrn of Highever 11:22, 25 February 2011 (UTC)Reply

Ask for appeal against quotation limits edit

Unfortunately, I must object with your decisions because the quotes I posted are ones that I thought were actually memorable and postworthy.

Per the exceptions as posted at Wikiquote:Limits on quotations, "If a page is considered by an editor to have an unusually large number of memorable quotes (e.g., some movie classics), an appeal can be made to the community to allow an exception to the guidelines. A forum will be created for editors to make the case for a quote or an article which exceeds the limits for number or length of quotations. Each discussion will be limited to a standard time and will be decided by community consensus. Articles will be tagged to inform readers when a discussion is taking place."

I consider that all Wikiquote articles on Doctor Who qualify for this exemption, and should be regarded as such. I use for example "Aliens of London": due to quotation limits, it ends up cutting out a number of quotes I consider to be of interest (like when the Slitheen first reveal themselves to Asquith, and after the one posing as Oliver Charles puts on General Asquith's skin, etc.). 03:28, 31 March 2011 (UTC)Reply

As someone who saw very loose guidelines with no absolute prescriptions work fine here for years, where people did not have to ask permission to exceed them, but where efforts to constrain and limit things in unreasonable ways could be rejected and resisted in open debates by the concerned individuals, I fully sympathize with your sentiments, but rejecting many of the the current "Limits on Quotations" policies in terms of specific exeemptions for some articles are not something I would encourage anyone to seek. The standards which currently stand are such as I consider entirely inappropriate, and appeal to all concerned about them to prepare themselves to develop far more appropriate and well considered alternatives, which are less absolutely prescriptive and are simply provisional guidelines which could generally be debated were they greatly exceeded to such levels as might actually be dangerous, in legal terms.
I myself have not usually had any high levels of interest in exceeding these current limits on many articles, though I have witnessed very well developed articles pared down witlessly and wretchedly to adhere to them, and generally consider it overly stifling and unnecessary that such restrictions be imposed as if they were absolutely mandated by legal imperatives when they truly are NOT. To present such formulations AS IF they were actually something mandated by legal imperatives is something I can charitably consider merely deluded, or uncharitably assess to be fraudulent. I recognize that there certainly ARE limits on quotations we can use from any copyrighted work, but to pretend that these current limits which are treated as absolute limits represent an entirely fair or necessary strategy is one I have never accepted. MANY other issues have had priority for me, so I have not spent much time with the issue, but expect some addressing of it will have to occur in coming months. ~ Kalki (talk · contributions) 03:46, 31 March 2011 (UTC)Reply
While I agree on the issues inherent in the limits on quotations, there are flaws with your argument. Some of Doctor Who from the 1960s can be considered classic due to age but the page that you started this discussion on is the ninth doctor, which is less than 5 years old. No matter how good the material is, few people would consider it classic at this age. Further, those who do are going to be viewers who already have a bias. And on your request, that all Doctor Who qualify for an exception seems poorly thought out because everyone would be asking for their favorite shows to get an exception just because it's their favorite. A better argument would be the fact Doctor Who's age and the amount of seasons it made making it a classic, but, even typing this, I feel that my point still would exclude the revived series because it doesn't meet the standards I put forward for the classic series. Teyrn of Highever 10:13, 31 March 2011 (UTC)Reply
I would like to point out what I consider to be the most glaring flaw in the process at this point: "an appeal can be made to the community to allow an exception to the guidelines" — this is a wiki —and I believe the guidelines — which for the most part I consider attempts to restrain the regularly overzealous more than actually legal imperatives, should be treated as loose and provisional guidelines — ALWAYS subject to reasonable exceptions, without necessity of begging others for such — and NOT absolute mandates requiring "an appeal" to the community to exceed them. I strongly believe that the burden of mustering a manifestation of collective will should generally be upon the constrainers of individual will — and that those so lazy minded as to actually believe that there are absolute formulas that can or should be imposed on ALL or even most circumstances should have to justify their particular assumptions with more than specious arguments that legal imperatives impel them. Where someone observes highly excessive disregard for reasonable guidelines, one should be able to appeal to community consensus to trim back things more towards such standards — and NOT generally feel free to impose one's own preferences to what quotes exist within them in absolutely hacking things down to such "limits" as one feels comfortable with. I espectially loathe to witness what I consider excessive trimming which has sometimes gone on in regard to such works as Casablanca and such. I personally am a fan of "The Doctor", and thus can see much of the peculiar worth of many of the quotes that have been removed even if they are not immediately apparent to all who are not fans. I am usually not very attentive to most television shows nor their articles, but believe that there should be less institutional hostility to fans of such shows than seems to have become part of the culture here. ~ Kalki (talk · contributions) 14:44, 31 March 2011 (UTC)Reply
I would like to comment on a few of the issues raised here. (Disclosure: I enjoyed early seasons of the show quite a lot, but have not followed it in recent decades.)
  1. "To present such formulations AS IF they were actually something mandated by legal imperatives..." The lead sentence of WQ:LOQ begins with "To maintain the quality of our pages...." I believe this formulation is correct in placing quality first. Notwithstanding that the original impetus for WQ:LOQ arose from discussion of copyrights at Meta, there is practically no limit on the nature and quantity of material we could include under the safe harbor of the DMCA without fear of being sued for copyright infringement. The real imperative should be the quality of the articles. Excessive quantity defeats the purpose of showcasing the brilliant bits.
  2. The appeal process described at WQ:LOQ is pointlessly bureaucratic. There is no reason these editorial judgments can't be handled by the ordinary bold-revert-discuss cycle, resorting to a formal "request for comment" only when consensus cannot be achieved. However, when content in excess of WQ:LOQ is contested I do believe it is a good idea to stick to the guideline by default, unless there is a clear consensus to do otherwise. I think this is consistent with the principle that the "rules" are only guidelines, that they should be ignored if they get in the way of improving Wikiquote, but that whether it is an improvement needs to be justifiable.
  3. "Considered classic due to age..." Age alone does not mean much. Most of Shakespeare's contemporaries have long been forgotten, with good reason. Most of Shakespeare's plays at Wikiquote exceed WQ:LOQ, and this is justifiable not due to antiquity, or even to being "classic" works, but rather because they are "classic" quotes. There is little, if anything, on those pages that is not widely quoted. ~ Ningauble 20:30, 31 March 2011 (UTC)Reply
To be fair, while I agree with you, Quality and copyright are both mentioned in the same sentence. Shakespeare wouldn't be subject to a limitation on quotations on copyright purposes. This leaves quality of the page, which is more of a matter for the individual users to decide. Teyrn of Highever 22:40, 31 March 2011 (UTC)Reply
My !vote is to oppose a blanket exception for Doctor Who pages. I believe it is better for Wikiquote to focus on showcasing the authors' style and insight with a few of the most quotable examples. ~ Ningauble 20:30, 31 March 2011 (UTC)Reply
I oppose a blanket exception. I also agree on the comments on quality. Before I started editing this page, entire scenes were being quoted. Quantity does not equal quality. Many of the quotes were good but the purpose of wikiquote is to provide an insight into the show and writers for those interested, not to transcribe the script. Teyrn of Highever 22:40, 31 March 2011 (UTC)Reply

Need for more registration and input by Doctor Who editors — and others. edit

I encourage many of the people who have edited here, or at other pages, whether related to Doctor Who or not, to register a username so as to more effectively voice opinions and to be able to vote in major issues that occur on the wiki in the months and years to come.

At the Village Pump I raised the issue of a need to expand potentials and lessen restrictions on this and other pages. I believe that there is need for extensive discussion and eventually a vote on this matter, within a few months.

I intend to gradually do extensive work on the Doctor Who pages in coming months — adding airdates and links, and doing minor cleanup work. I don't plan to actually add many quotes to the articles initally, but eventually might do so, as I review past episodes of the series in the coming year. I encourage anyone interested in developing the Doctor Who pages more extensively to register a user account here, so as to have more effective influence on policy decisions which need to be confronted in coming months regarding existing guidelines and limitations that have been promoted regarding quotes from TV shows and films, including those of Doctor Who. ~ Kalki (talk · contributions) 06:45, 31 May 2011 (UTC)Reply

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