Talk:Christ myth theory

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Sources

These quotes have dates and page numbers, but what are the source names? - InvisibleSun 04:21, 23 February 2010 (UTC)

Appendix to the corresponding Wikipedia article

This article appears to be some sort of appendix to the corresponding Wikipedia article: an annotated bibliography of an academic debate. I don't think duplicating and extending Wikipedia's coverage here really adds value — it reads like an essay pasted together from quotes. I am not sure which of these citations are quotable for Wikiquote's purposes, but I am pretty sure that not all of them are. ~ Ningauble 15:56, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

Surprisingly, most quotes are from opponents of the Christ Myth Theory.

Among the Christ Myth Theory advocates, only three are quoted:

- John E. Remsberg, whose quote is a bit ambiguous: it is not clear what is "the former" in the final sentence "compelled to accept the former as the more probable."

- then G. A. Wells, with a quote debatably included in the Section "scholarly consensus against the theory", when in fact, Wells is considered as the living doyen of the school supporting the Christ Myth Theory;

- and Robert M. Price, with another unclear quotation.

This article does not quote any of the other well-known Christ Myth Theory scholars who are already listed as major advocates in the Wikipedia article on "The Christ Myth Theory", such as:

Charles François Dupuis,

Constantin-François Chassebœuf, Comte de Volney,

David Strauss,

Bruno Bauer,

The Radical Dutch school: Abraham Dirk Loman, Allard Pierson, C.A. van den bergh van Eysinga, G.J.P.J. Bolland, Hermann Dietering, Sytse Hoekstra, Samuel Naber, Rudolf Steck, Willem Christiaan van Manen,

Edwin Johnson,

John MacKinnon Robertson,

William Benjamin Smith,

Arthur Drews,

Paul-Louis Couchoud,

G.R.S. Mead,

Bertrand Russell,

John Allegro,

Alva Ellegard,

Thomas Thompson,

Earl Doherty,

Richard Dawkins,

Victor Stenger.

This gives the whole sequence of quotes a one-sided tilt of opposition to the Theory that is purposefully presented as the object of this article. The Christ Myth Theory is not rightfully represented.

Whoever is in charge of this page is not really familiar with the subject.

--ROO BOOKAROO (talk) 14:22, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't understand the claim that John E. Remsburg is a bit ambiguous. It is blatantly clear what "the former" is in the final sentence "compelled to accept the former as the more probable."

Remsburg give two parallel statemenets:

1)Some believe that he is a historical myth; others that he is a pure myth.

2)Some believe that Jesus, a real person, was the germ of this Christ whom subsequent generations gradually evolved; others contend that the man Jesus, as well as the Christ, is wholly a creation of the human imagination.

This makes it clear to anyone what the "the former" means: Jesus was a historical myth involving a real person. I have no idea how anyone with even a basic understanding of the English language couldn't figure that out.--50.251.15.57 10:49, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

The most negatively biased content

Undoubtedly, this is the most negatively biased content I have ever read on the topic of Christ mythology. It appears to have been written by a Christian apologist with a clear agenda to clumsily discredit all scholarly work by mythologists with nothing more than quotes from other biased Christians, and most of those quotes rely heavenly on Argumentum ad Hominum (attacking the person instead of the issue) fallacy insults against anyone who states that "no man named Jesus Christ, as depicted in the Gospels, ever existed". Never once has the author of the topic used scientific methodology to prove his assertion, and never once did he attempt to disprove through the use of scientific methodology, logic, or reason even one scientifically demonstrable claim of any mythologist, past or present. This topic should have been named "Anti Christ-Myth propaganda" (as it contains an absolute lacunae of readily available scientific theory or fact on this topic.) Most of the text needs to be replaced with demonstrably provable claims of the mythologists themselves, links to sites on mythology, etc., so that the readers can actually read exactly what the mythologists are really saying, (along with their evidence), rather than allowing an anti-mythologist Christian dominate the topic with biased personal opinions and quotes from mostly unqualified, unscholarly, Christian book authors. In short, give readers both sides of the debate, and let them decide for themselves what to believe. ---Ersatzreifen 24 February, 2013

You might have a point. The content of this article has been questioned before, see the discussion above. On Wikipedia in similar situations, you can add a Template:POV above the article. Here on Wikiquote you can add a Template:Npov template, if you want. -- Mdd (talk) 00:31, 24 February 2013 (UTC)

While a desired position Carrier notes that most of the Christ Myth Theory stuff is really really bad which is why there is a lack of good quotes on the for Christ Myth Theory side. It doesn't help that the pro historical side throws the "Christ Myth Theory" label around all the gay abandon of an alcoholic in a brewery and everybody has their own idea on what the term even means resulting on a range of designations from Jesus of the Gospels didn't exist (Frazer's and many late 19th-early 20th century mythists' position) through Jesus didn't exist as a human being at all (the extreme end of the Christ Myth Theory). Then you have the Gospel Jesus is a composite character with some aspects of historical messiahs part of his make up position (John M. Robertson and G.A. Wells} which has also been called "mythist". This is why there is a definition section as some on the pro historical side is engaging in a kind of Humpty Dumpty 'it means what I say it means' tap dance.--BruceGrubb (talk) 17:01, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Deletions

There have been several deletions of quotes in the article history.

Somebody should check them.

These seem to be deletions from the article history:

• [Per the writings of Josephus and Tacitus] Their informants were [...] [1. Christian informants or 2. non-Christians who themselves had heard stories about Jesus from Christian informants]. It is impossible to know [with certainty] whether these Christians [i.e. informants] had been influenced by the sources we have already discussed, but it is [also] completely possible that they themselves had simply heard stories about Jesus [from independent sources, i.e. stories not derived from the sources we have already discussed]. [...] [Therefore Tacitus—and possibly Josephus—indirectly] provide independent attestation to Jesus’s existence from outside the Gospels...

• • Ehrman, Bart D. (20 March 2012). "Non-Christian Sources". Did Jesus Exist?: The Historical Argument for Jesus of Nazareth. HarperCollins. p. 97. ISBN 978-0-06-208994-6. 

I especially wanted to explain late Jewish eschatology more thoroughly and to discuss the works of John M. Robertson, William Benjamin Smith, James George Frazer, Arthur Drews, and others, who contested the historical existence of Jesus. It is not difficult to pretend that Jesus never lived. The attempt to prove it, however, invariably produces the opposite conclusion.

Schweitzer, Albert 1931 Out of my life and thought: an autobiography pg 125

• [T]here is substantial evidence that a person by the name of Jesus once existed.

Robert Funk, Honest to Jesus: Jesus for a New Millenium, San Francisco: HarperSanFrancisco, 1997, p. 33

• We know a lot about Jesus, vastly more than about John the Baptist, Theudas, Judas the Galilean, or any of the other figures whose names we have from approximately the same date and place.

E. P. Sanders, The Historical Figure of Jesus, London: Allen Lane, 1993, p. xiv

• Even the most critical historian can confidently assert that a Jew named Jesus worked as a teacher and wonder-worker in Palestine during the reign of Tiberius, was executed by crucifixion under the prefect Pontius Pilate, and continued to have followers after his death.

Luke Timothy Johnson, The Real Jesus, San Francisco: Harper, 1996, p. 121

• It is certain, however, that Jesus was arrested while in Jerusalem for the Passover, probably in the year 30, and that he was executed...it cannot be doubted that Peter was a personal disciple of Jesus...

Helmut Koester, Introduction to the New Testament, 2 (2nd ed.), Berlin: Walter de Gruyter, 2000, pp. 80 & 166

• It is the nature of historical work that we are always involved in probability judgments. Granted, some judgments are so probable as to be certain; for example, Jesus really existed and really was crucified, just as Julius Caeser really existed and was assassinated.

Marcus Borg, "A Vision of the Christian Life", The Meaning of Jesus: Two Visions, Marcus Borg & N. T. Wright, San Francisco: HarperCollins, 2007, p. 236

• The very logic that tells us there was no Jesus is the same logic that pleads that there was no Holocaust. On such logic, history is no longer possible. It is no surprise then that there is no New Testament scholar drawing pay from a post who doubts the existence of Jesus. I know not one. His birth, life, and death in first-century Palestine have never been subject to serious question and, in all likelihood, never will be among those who are experts in the field. The existence of Jesus is a given.

Nicholas Perrin, Lost in Transmission?: What We Can Know About the Words of Jesus, Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 2007, p. 32

• While we do not have the fullness of biographical detail and the wealth of firsthand accounts that are available for recent public figures, such as Winston Churchill or Mother Teresa, we nonetheless have much more data on Jesus than we do for such ancient figures as Alexander the Great." and "Along with the scholarly and popular works, there is a good deal of pseudoscholarship on Jesus that finds its way into print. During the last two centuries more than a hundred books and articles have denied the historical existence of Jesus. Today innumerable websites carry the same message... Most scholars regard the arguments for Jesus' non-existence as unworthy of any response—on a par with claims that the Jewish Holocaust never occurred or that the Apollo moon landing took place in a Hollywood studio.

Michael James McClymond, Familiar Stranger: An Introduction to Jesus of Nazareth, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 2004, pp. 8 & 23–24

Split

This article should be split into separate articles for Historical reliability of the Gospels Historicity of Jesus Historical Jesus Biblical criticism

Deleted quotes

• [G. A.] Wells, author of several Jesus-was-a-myth books, writes how ‘others took the view that only trained theologians and not an outsider such as’ himself could ‘contribute to the discussion’ (1975, p. 2). [Wells, G. A. (1975) Did Jesus Exist? London, Elek Books.]
  • Bennett, Clinton (2001). In Search of Jesus: Insider and Outsider Images. Continuum. p. 209. ISBN 978-0-8264-4915-3.