Talk:Qur'an on non-Muslims
Latest comment: 4 years ago by დამოკიდებულება in topic Undiscussed page move
Islam article
editThese quotes have been taken out of the Islam article. The quotes belong here as a Quran sub-article.--Inesculent 20:21, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
~ 3 quotes per 100 verses, cleanup in progress, translation improvement
editI am in the process of cleanup and actually including academic translations. I am unilaterally at the moment limiting this article to approx. 3 quotes per 100 verses, otherwise the article will be absolutely, unreasonably too long (and nearly impossible to edit). Many of the quotes containted now are redundant. Peace and Passion ("I'm listening....") 21:37, 10 August 2009 (UTC)
- PS This cleanup is going to take days.... if you see the {{inuse}} tag, I'm still in the process. Peace and Passion ("I'm listening....") 00:12, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
- Still in process, please don't remove tag :) ... it will be done, if slowly! Peace and Passion ("I'm listening....") 05:04, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
This translation is not accurate
editThe translation is not accurate, if you seek a good translation, please follow http://www.dar-us-salam.com/TheNobleQuran/ "DO NOT USE THIS LINK. SEE RESPONSE"
- —This unsigned comment is by 86.108.61.120 (talk • contribs) 16:56, 13 August 2009.
- This IP blanked the page and linked to a translation of the Qur'an which is described by academic Islamic sources as:
- From the beginning, the Hilali and Muhsin Khan translation reads more like a supremacist Muslim, anti-Semitic, anti-Christian polemic than a rendition of the Islamic scripture. In the first sura, for example, verses which are universally accepted as, "Guide us to the straight path, the path of those whom You have favored, not of those who have incurred Your wrath, nor of those who have gone astray" become, "Guide us to the Straight Way, the way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who have earned Your anger (such as the Jews), nor of those who went astray (such as the Christians)." What is particularly egregious about this interpolation is that it is followed by an extremely long footnote to justify its hate based on traditions from medieval texts.
- Contemporary political disputes also pollute the translation, marring what should be a reflection of timeless religion. Whereas the Qur'an reports Moses's address to the Israelites as "O my people! Enter the Holy Land that God has assigned unto you," this Saudi version twists the verse with modern politics, writing, "O my people! Enter the holy land (Palestine)."
- The appendix includes a polemical comparison of Jesus and Muhammad, reporting that the former had no claim to divinity. From a Muslim perspective, what Jesus did or did not do should be drawn from the Qur'anic text, not an appendix, and certainly not by Muslim readings of the gospels. In fact, while the Qur'an does take issue with the Christian claims of divinity for Jesus, it views him, along with his mother Mary, as being truly blessed and peaceful, much in concordance with the general Christian belief. Although this Saudi-sponsored effort, undertaken before 9-11, is a serious liability for American Muslims in particular, it still remains present in Sunni mosques, probably because of its free distribution by the Saudi government.
- — The Middle East Quarterly, Spring 2005, Volume XII: Number 2, Middle East Forum, Assessing English Translations of the Qur'an
- Sheila Musaji: "is shocking in its distortions of the message of the Qur’an and amounts to a rewrite not a translation"
- Dr. Robert (Farooq) D. Crane: "Perhaps the most extremist translation ever made of the Qur’an"
- Khaled Abou El Fadl: "grotesque misogyny"
- There are, and have been, egregious errors in translation in this article for years, that is why I am in the process of cleaning it up and referencing Yusuf Ali and Marmaduke Pickthall, two very respected translations. Perhaps this IP doesn't know much about the subject of Qur'anic translation (and didn't read the note at the top) and assumed that the Yusuf Ali translations were in fact those of Maulana Muhammad Ali, a translation which is very controversial in Islam due to the sect to which Maulana Muhammad Ali belongs. Some Islamic academic sources nonetheless do say that his translation, regardless of its author, (and his other works) are still valid, and excel in some respects. Nonetheless, I have avoided using Maulana Muhammad Ali wherever possible due to the controversy surrounding its author. Peace and Passion ("I'm listening....") 01:31, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
Removed quotes
editHi Xsaorapa, you said you were "removing off topic" quotes. Can you please indicate on the talkpage which quotes were removed (and maybe add some explanation as well). Because of the size of the article, it is very difficult to figure it out otherwise. Thanks. --დამოკიდებულება (talk) 14:39, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
Here are most of the quotes (maybe I forgot some) I removed for being off topic:
- Do not say that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead; they are alive, although you are not aware of them.
- Surah 2: ayat 154.
- Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and love a thing although it is bad for you. Allah knows, but you do not.
- Surah 2: ayat 216.
- Did you suppose that you would enter Paradise before Allah has proved the men who fought for Him and endured with fortitude?
- Surah 3: ayat 142.
- If you should die or be slain in the cause of Allah, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches they amass. If you should die or be slain, before Him you shall all be gathered.
- Surah 3: ayats 157-158.
- You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well provided for by their Lord; pleased with His gifts and rejoicing that those whom they left behind and who have not yet joined them have nothing to fear or to regret; rejoicing in Allah’s grace and bounty. Allah will not deny the faithful their reward.
- Surah 3: ayats 169-171.
- Never should a believer kill a believer; but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due): If one (so) kills a believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave, and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they remit it freely. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (Is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have treaty of Mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed. For those who find this beyond their means, (is prescribed) a fast for two months running: by way of repentance to God. for God hath all knowledge and all wisdom.
- The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;
- As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise
- And We prescribed for them therein: The life for the life, and the eye for the eye, and the nose for the nose, and the ear for the ear, and the tooth for the tooth, and for wounds retaliation. But whoso forgoeth it (in the way of charity) it shall be expiation for him. Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are wrong-doers.
- Now bath Allah lightened your burden, for He knoweth that there is weakness in you. So if there be of you a steadfast hundred they shall vanquish two hundred, and if there be of you a thousand steadfast they shall vanquish two thousand by permission of Allah. Allah is with the steadfast.
- Surah 8: ayat 66.
- It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land…
- Surah 8: ayat 67.
- Those that have embraced the faith and fled their homes, fought for the cause of Allah with their wealth and their persons; and those that sheltered them and helped them, shall be friends to each other… they are the true believers. They shall receive mercy and generous provision.
- Surah 8: ayats 72-74.
- Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. This will be best for you, if you but knew it,
- Surah 9: ayat 41.
- If you do not fight He will punish you sternly and replace you by other men…
- Surah 9: ayat 39.
- Allah has purchased of the faithful their lives and worldly goods and in return has promised them the Garden. They will fight for His cause, slay and be slain. Such is the true pledge which He has made them in the Torah, the Gospel and the Koran. And who is more true to His promise than Allah? Rejoice then in the bargain you have made. That is the supreme triumph.
- Surah 9: ayat 111.
- Those that have embraced the faith and fled their homes and fought for Allah’s cause with their wealth and their persons are held in higher regard by Allah. It is they who shall triumph. Their Lord has promised them joy and mercy, and gardens of eternal pleasures where they shall dwell for ever. Allah’s reward is great indeed.
- Surah 9: ayats 20-22.
- The adulterer may marry only an adulteress or an idolatress; and adulteress may marry only an adulterer or an idolater. True believers are forbidden such marriages.
- Surah 24: ayat 3.
- He that fights for Allah’s cause fights for himself…
- Surah 29: ayat 6.
- Those that fight for Our cause We will surely guide to our own paths. Allah is with the righteous.
- Surah 29: ayat 69.
- Luqman admonished his son. ‘My son’, he said, ‘serve no other God instead of Allah, for idolatry is an abominable sin.’
- Surah 31: ayat 13.
- …But doleful shall be the return of the transgressors. They shall bum in the fire of Hell, a dismal resting-place. There let them taste their drink: scalding water, festering blood and other putrid things.
- Surah 38: ayats 55-57.
- And who speaks better than he who calls others to the service of Allah, does what is right, and says: ‘I am a Muslim?’
- Surah 41: ayat 33.
- The true believers are those that have faith in Allah and His apostle and never doubt; and who fight for His cause with their wealth and persons. Such are those whose faith is true.
- Surah 49: ayat 15.
- Then Allah will say, ‘Jesus, son of Mary, did you ever say to mankind: “Worship me and my mother as Gods beside Allah?’ ‘Glory to You,’ he will answer, ‘how could I say that to which I have no right? If I had ever said so, You would have surely known it. You know what is in my mind, but I cannot tell what is in Yours. You alone know what is hidden. I spoke to them of nothing except what You bade me. I said, “Serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord.” I watched over them whilst living in their midst, and ever since You took me to You, You Yourself have been watching over them. You are the witness of all things. They are Your own bondsmen: it is for You to punish or to forgive them. You are the Mighty, the Wise one.’
- Surah 5: ayats 116-118.
- But We shall say: ‘Call the sinners, their wives, and the idols which they worshipped besides Allah and lead them to the path of Hell. Keep them there for questioning - But what has come over you that you cannot help one another?’
- Surah 37: ayats 22-25.
--Xsaorapa (talk) 18:41, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- Thank you. What was the criteria for removal? Most of the quotes seem to be about non-Muslims in some way. And many of them were sourced (with hidden text) to a third party source that claimed that the quote is about non-Muslims.
- Note: We are discussing this edit[1]. --დამოკიდებულება (talk) 19:43, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- There is no explicit mention of "non-muslims" in these quotes. I looked at the source you are referring, and it is clearly polemical, biased and unreliable. It is not an independent exegetical work and there is no reference to the author of the translation. --Xsaorapa (talk) 21:33, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- the article is called Qur'an on non-Muslims, it is not called Qur'an on Kafir or Kafir in the Quran. So the mention need not be "explicit". A source for a quote can also be "popular", it need not be purely "academic". The list of quotes about non-Muslims is polemical but it is also from a historical document (from the religious and law history of West Bengal, India).
- anyway, i see there is room for improvement, in that the translation used (name of translator) should be specified. --დამოკიდებულება (talk) 21:45, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- I have now checked, more quotes than above were removed. They were improperly removed: Removed quotes should have been placed on the talkpage with an explanation. I am adding them back. Some of them may indeed be offtopic, but it needs to be copied to the talkpage with an explanation. The quotes also should all use the same standard translation, but this can be fixed over time. --დამოკიდებულება (talk) 08:42, 1 June 2020 (UTC)
Arabic text
editDo we need to include the Arabic text in this article? IMO, it is not necessary. --დამოკიდებულება (talk) 20:53, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- Maybe, I don't know. As a matter of preference, I just used the same template that was already in place for a more harmonized text. --Xsaorapa (talk) 21:38, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
- Talk:Quran#Arabic text. Rupert Loup 07:54, 4 June 2020 (UTC)
Offtopic quotes
editRemoved because offtopic. A thief can also be a Muslim.
- Cut off the hands of thieves. It is an exemplary punishment from God.
I removed these quotes for the same reason [comment in brackets]:
- Do not say that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead; they are alive, although you are not aware of them.
- Surah 2: ayat 154. [off topic, quote is about fighting]
- Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and love a thing although it is bad for you. Allah knows, but you do not.
- Surah 2: ayat 216. [same as above]
- Did you suppose that you would enter Paradise before Allah has proved the men who fought for Him and endured with fortitude?
- Surah 3: ayat 142. [off topic, related to paradise]
- If you should die or be slain in the cause of Allah, His forgiveness and His mercy would surely be better than all the riches they amass. If you should die or be slain, before Him you shall all be gathered.
- Surah 3: ayats 157-158. [off topic, quote is about fighting]
- You must not think that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead. They are alive, and well provided for by their Lord; pleased with His gifts and rejoicing that those whom they left behind and who have not yet joined them have nothing to fear or to regret; rejoicing in Allah’s grace and bounty. Allah will not deny the faithful their reward.
- Surah 3: ayats 169-171. [same as above]
- Let those fight in the cause of God Who sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fighteth in the cause of God,- whether he is slain or gets victory - Soon shall We give him a reward of great (value).
- Never should a believer kill a believer; but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due): If one (so) kills a believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave, and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they remit it freely. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (Is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have treaty of Mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed. For those who find this beyond their means, (is prescribed) a fast for two months running: by way of repentance to God. for God hath all knowledge and all wisdom.
- Original: وَمَا كَانَ لِمُؤْمِنٍ أَن يَقْتُلَ مُؤْمِناً إِلاَّ خَطَئاً وَمَن قَتَلَمُؤْمِناً خَطَئاً فَتَحْرِيرُ رَقَبَةٍ مُّؤْمِنَةٍ وَدِيَةٌ مُّسَلَّمَةٌ إِلَى أَهْلِهِ إِلاَّ أَن يَصَّدَّقُواْ فَإِن كَانَ مِن قَوْمٍ عَدُوٍّ لَّكُمْ وَهُوَ مْؤْمِنٌ فَتَحْرِيرُ رَقَبَةٍ مُّؤْمِنَةٍ وَإِن كَانَ مِن قَوْمٍ بَيْنَكُمْ وَبَيْنَهُمْ مِّيثَاقٌ فَدِيَةٌ مُّسَلَّمَةٌ إِلَى أَهْلِهِ وَتَحْرِيرُ رَقَبَةٍ مُّؤْمِنَةً فَمَن لَّمْ يَجِدْ فَصِيَامُ شَهْرَيْنِ مُتَتَابِعَيْنِ تَوْبَةً مِّنَ اللّهِ وَكَانَ اللّهُ عَلِيماً حَكِيماً
- The Qur'an (القرآن), Sura 4:92 [off topic, related to manslaughter]
- If a man kills a believer intentionally, his recompense is Hell, to abide therein (For ever): And the wrath and the curse of God are upon him, and a dreadful penalty is prepared for him.
- God did curse Satan, but he said: "I will take of Thy servants a portion Marked off;"I will mislead them, and I will create in them false desires; I will order them to slit the ears of cattle, and to deface the (fair) nature created by God." Whoever, forsaking God, takes satan for a friend, hath of a surety suffered a loss that is manifest. Satan makes them promises, and creates in them false desires; but satan's promises are nothing but deception.They (his dupes) will have their dwelling in Hell, and from it they will find no way of escape.
- Original: وَلأُضِلَّنَّهُمْ وَلأُمَنِّيَنَّهُمْ وَلآمُرَنَّهُمْ فَلَيُبَتِّكُنَّ آذَانَ الأَنْعَامِ وَلآمُرَنَّهُمْ فَلَيُغَيِّرُنَّ خَلْقَ اللّهِ وَمَن يَتَّخِذِ الشَّيْطَانَ وَلِيّاً مِّن دُونِ اللّهِ فَقَدْ خَسِرَ خُسْرَاناً مُّبِيناً
يَعِدُهُمْ وَيُمَنِّيهِمْ وَمَا يَعِدُهُمُ الشَّيْطَانُ إِلاَّ غُرُوراً
أُوْلَـئِكَ مَأْوَاهُمْ جَهَنَّمُ وَلاَ يَجِدُونَ عَنْهَا مَحِيصاً - The Qur'an (القرآن), Sura 4:119–121 [quote is related to Satan]
- Original: وَلأُضِلَّنَّهُمْ وَلأُمَنِّيَنَّهُمْ وَلآمُرَنَّهُمْ فَلَيُبَتِّكُنَّ آذَانَ الأَنْعَامِ وَلآمُرَنَّهُمْ فَلَيُغَيِّرُنَّ خَلْقَ اللّهِ وَمَن يَتَّخِذِ الشَّيْطَانَ وَلِيّاً مِّن دُونِ اللّهِ فَقَدْ خَسِرَ خُسْرَاناً مُّبِيناً
- He that flies his homeland for the cause of Allah shall find numerous places of refuge in the land and great abundance. He that leaves his dwelling to fight for Allah and His apostle and is then overtaken by death, shall be rewarded by Allah. Allah is forgiving and merciful.
- Surah 4: ayat 100. [does not refer to non-muslims]
- The believers who stay at home - apart from those that suffer from a grave impediment - are not equal to those -who fight for the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah has given those that fight with their goods and their persons a higher rank than those who stay at home. He has promised all a good reward: but far richer is the recompense of those who fight for Him: rank of His own bestowal, forgiveness, and mercy. Allah is forgiving and merciful.
- Surah 4: ayats 95-96. [off topic, quote is related to fighting]
- Do not say that those who were slain in the cause of Allah are dead; they are alive, although you are not aware of them.
- Surah 2: ayat 154. [same as above]
- Fighting is obligatory for you, much as you dislike it. But you may hate a thing although it is good for you, and love a thing although it is bad for you. Allah knows, but you do not.
- Surah 2: ayat 216. [same as above]
- And who has a nobler religion than the man who surrenders himself to Allah?…
- Surah: 4 ayat 125. [related to Abraham, see full quote]
- Those who make war with God and his messenger will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. That is how they will be treated in this world, and in the next they will have an awful doom.
- Original: إِنَّمَا جَزَاء الَّذِينَ يُحَارِبُونَ اللّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ وَيَسْعَوْنَ فِي الأَرْضِ فَسَاداً أَن يُقَتَّلُواْ أَوْ يُصَلَّبُواْ أَوْ تُقَطَّعَ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَأَرْجُلُهُم مِّنْ خِلافٍ أَوْ يُنفَوْاْ مِنَ الأَرْضِ ذَلِكَ لَهُمْ خِزْيٌ فِي الدُّنْيَا وَلَهُمْ فِي الآخِرَةِ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ
- The Qur'an (القرآن), Sura 5:33 [off topic, related to capital punishment]
- God will test believers to see if they are afraid. Those who fail a second test will suffer a a painful doom.
- But those who deny Our verses - the punishment will touch them for their defiant disobedience.
- Stay away from those who "meddle with" or mock the Quran.
- It is not for any Prophet to have captives until he has made slaughter in the land…
- Surah 8: ayat 67. [no mention to non-muslims]
- Those that have embraced the faith and fled their homes, fought for the cause of Allah with their wealth and their persons; and those that sheltered them and helped them, shall be friends to each other… they are the true believers. They shall receive mercy and generous provision.
- Surah 8: ayats 72-74. [quote is related to faith]
- Those that have embraced the faith and fled their homes and fought for Allah’s cause with their wealth and their persons are held in higher regard by Allah. It is they who shall triumph. Their Lord has promised them joy and mercy, and gardens of eternal pleasures where they shall dwell for ever. Allah’s reward is great indeed.
- Surah 9: ayats 20-22. [same as above]
- If you do not fight He will punish you sternly and replace you by other men…
- Surah 9: ayat 39. [off topic, quote is related to fighting]
- Whether unarmed or well-equipped, march on and fight for the cause of Allah, with your wealth and your persons. This will be best for you, if you but knew it,
- Surah 9: ayat 41. [same as above]
- The adulterer may marry only an adulteress or an idolatress; and adulteress may marry only an adulterer or an idolater. True believers are forbidden such marriages.
- Surah 24: ayat 3. [off topic, quote is about adultery]
- He that fights for Allah’s cause fights for himself…
- Surah 29: ayat 6. [off topic, quote is related to fighting]
- Those that fight for Our cause We will surely guide to our own paths. Allah is with the righteous.
- Surah 29: ayat 69. [same as above]
- Luqman admonished his son. ‘My son’, he said, ‘serve no other God instead of Allah, for idolatry is an abominable sin.’
- Surah 31: ayat 13. [quote is related to Luqman and the topic is about non-muslims not idolatry]
- …But doleful shall be the return of the transgressors. They shall bum in the fire of Hell, a dismal resting-place. There let them taste their drink: scalding water, festering blood and other putrid things.
- Surah 38: ayats 55-57. [can also refer to muslims]
- And who speaks better than he who calls others to the service of Allah, does what is right, and says: ‘I am a Muslim?’
- Surah 41: ayat 33. [related to Islam and muslims]
- The true believers are those that have faith in Allah and His apostle and never doubt; and who fight for His cause with their wealth and persons. Such are those whose faith is true.
- Surah 49: ayat 15. [related to faith]
- …We renounce you (i.e. the idolaters): enmity and hate shall reign between us until you believe in Allah only…
- Surah 60: ayat 4. [related to Abraham, see full quote]
- Some of us are Muslims and some are wrong-doers. Those that embrace Islam pursue the right path; but those that do wrong (of not embracing Islam) shall become the fuel of fire.
- Surah 72: ayats 14-15. [related to Islam]
- Life for life, eye for eye, nose for nose, ear for ear, and tooth for tooth. Non-muslims are wrong doers. [misquotation, see full quote in the source]
Undiscussed page move
editThis is a large and long standing article that was moved without any discussion to the title Kafir. Such pages should not be moved without discussion and consensus.
One major problem is that this limits the scope of the article. Non-Muslims are not only called by the word Kafir in the Quran.
None of the quotes in the Quran section even mention the word Kafir (except maybe in the Arab original).
Non-Muslims are also called by many other words or the mention is only implicit.
One version of the article says the quotes include quotes on Munafiq too.
This is one of a series of undiscussed page moves. --დამოკიდებულება (talk) 17:54, 19 August 2020 (UTC)