Talk:Armenian genocide
This seperate section is a great idea. I can see it comprising a list of a great many quotes before too long. Is there a provision for their organization - or do they just get listed? --THOTH 02:26, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I removed these following two alleged quotes attributed to Ambassador Morganthau.
- "...The domestic situation was deplorable: all over Turkey thousands of the populace were daily dying of starvation; practically all able-bodied men had been taken into the army, so that only a few were left to till the fields; the criminal requisitions had almost destroyed all business; the treasury was in a more exhausted state than normally, for the closing of the Dardanelles and the blockading of the Mediterranean ports had stopped all imports and customs dues..."
- Henry Morganthau, U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, Ambassador Morgenthau's Story
- "...About a million families were left without breadwinners, all of them in a condition of extreme destitution. The Turkish Government paid its soldiers 25 cents a month, and gave the families a separation allowance of $1.20 a month. As a result thousands were dying from lack of food and many more were enfeebled by malnutrition; I believe that the empire has lost a quarter of its Turkish population since the war started."
- Henry Morganthau, U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire, Ambassador Morgenthau's Story
First I could not find them in the text of his book - and secondly I don't think that they are directly concerning the Armenian Genocide - certainly there are more appropriate quotes from him. Lastly I expanded the first quote to put it in its proper context. --THOTH 21:51, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I cleaned up the section by eliminating the irrelevant bit from Talaat Pasha which really has no place here and was just distracting. Also a comment was inserted claiming that the Armenian Genocide was hersay - which - if one reads the quotes here - should be clear that it is not. So I removed this (unsigned) comment as well. --THOTH 02:02, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
cleanup
editI added the cleanup tag to this page because it has no clear organization, and I believe that oganization by the name of the author would probably be best in this case. It also has other formatting inconsistencies. I encourage the use of bolding for significant passages on pages, but I believe emphasized passages should generally be clear statements, and not merely a few words. Though I have long been aware of the historical events that are the subject here, it has not been a major focus of study for me, but recent vandalism has prompted me to pay more attention to this article, and some of the formatting problems. I have added some images, and I might do more work on it within the next week or so, and organize it by author, if no one has any better ideas. ~ Kalki 12:20, 27 December 2006 (UTC)
- I have done the initial re-organization and cleanup on this page, and added images, and did a little sourcing and a few corrections. I have not cut down any of the longer quotes, but I think it would probably be a good idea on at least some of them. I am taking a break from this page for a while though and might not get back to it any time soon. ~ Kalki 16:53, 14 January 2007 (UTC)
- In fact there was an organization - that by arranging alpabetically you totally messed up. I have no problem with bolding certain parts - but I really think you should put the quote back where they were and read through them and try to understand the story that they told and how. --68.98.189.145 06:47, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
- Re-examining things, I must restate the observations I had made a couple weeks before my cleanup edits — that there was no clear order based upon any standard of either author name or statement chronology at all, and if the arrangement was merely one in which someone aspired to "tell a story" by a non-random but non-standard selection of their order, and by the bolding of what was often merely a few words here and there, rather than full statements, the intended point of the "story" remains rather dubious and unclear, and created a massive compilation that had no obvious or easily searchable arrangement or order. As even many of the sourced statements were not clearly dated, and because there were often so many of them by the same author, arranging them by the name of the author seemed the simplest and best option available.
Previously some reported remarks of Adolf Hitler were given top billing at the very start of the page, as if he were to be regarded as a primary authority and commentator on the Armenian genocide. Just because he might be the most famous of genocidal maniacs, and because he might have been inspired by the Turkish policies towards Armenians in his own policies towards Jews, Poles and others he considered inferior to a Germanic "master race" does not warrant giving exaggerated prominence to his comments on the matter. Beyond organizing the quotes alphabetically by author, rather than letting them remain arranged in a manner that might be decipherable only to the arranger, I also added extensive Wikipedia links to people with articles there, did some sourcing and correction to a few of the quotations, and added all of the images. ~ Kalki 08:06, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
- Re-examining things, I must restate the observations I had made a couple weeks before my cleanup edits — that there was no clear order based upon any standard of either author name or statement chronology at all, and if the arrangement was merely one in which someone aspired to "tell a story" by a non-random but non-standard selection of their order, and by the bolding of what was often merely a few words here and there, rather than full statements, the intended point of the "story" remains rather dubious and unclear, and created a massive compilation that had no obvious or easily searchable arrangement or order. As even many of the sourced statements were not clearly dated, and because there were often so many of them by the same author, arranging them by the name of the author seemed the simplest and best option available.
Unsourced quotes
editIf you can provide a reliable and precise source for any of these quotes please move them to the project page — but not otherwise. --Antiquary 20:14, 7 January 2009 (UTC)
- We and many others have accepted the United Nations definition of genocide and there can be no argument about [the Armenian case] being genocide.
- Prof. Yehuda Bauer, academic director, Yad Vashem
- The Armenian citizen has not forgiven the slaughter of his father in the Kurdish mountains. But he loves you, because you also won't forgive those who blackened the name of the Turkish people.
- Nazım Hikmet, famous Turkish poet
- I refer to those awful massacres. They are the greatest stain that has ever disgraced our nation and race. They were entirely the work of TalatTalat and Enver. I heard some days before they began that they were intended. I went to Istanbul and insisted on seeing Enver. I asked him if it was true that they intended to recommence the massacres that had been our shame and disgrace under Abdul Hamid. The only reply I could get from him was: 'It is decided.It is the program.'
- Prince Abdul Mecid, the heir apparent to the Ottoman Sultanate, and last Caliph.
- When the Turkish authorities gave the orders for these deportations, they were merely giving the death warrant to a whole race; they understood this well, and, in their conversations with me, they made no particular attempt to conceal the fact. ... I am confident that the whole history of the human race contains no such horrible episode as this. The great massacres and persecutions of the past seem almost insignificant when compared to the sufferings of the Armenian race in 1915.
- Henry Morgenthau, U.S. Ambassador to the Ottoman Empire
- There isn't an Armenian Question anymore, as there are no Armenians in the Ottoman Empire.
- Mehmed Talat Pasha, Minister of the Interior, Otoman Empire, as reported by Ambassador Morganthau
- It is unlawful to designate the Armenian assets as "abandoned goods" for the Armenians, the proprietors, did not abandon their properties voluntarily; they were forcibly, compulsively removed from their domiciles and exiled. Now the government through its efforts is selling their goods... Nobody can sell my property if I am unwilling to sell it... If we are a constitutional regime functioning in accordance with constitutional law we can't do this. This is atrocious. Grab my arm, eject me from my village, then sell my goods and properties, such a thing can never be permissible. Neither the conscience of the Ottomans nor the law can allow it.
- Ottoman Senator Ahmed Riza, before the Ottoman Parliment in 1915
- In one way or another, the Central Government enforced and controlled the execution of the scheme, as it alone had originated the conception of it; and the Young Turkish Ministers and their associates at Constantinople are directly and personally responsible, from beginning to end, for the gigantic crime that devastated the Near East in 1915.
- Arnold Toynbee, Historian
Probably fabricated interview
editI'm referring to:
- These left-overs from the former Young Turk Party, who should have been made to account for the millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule.
- Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, in an interview published in The Los Angeles Examiner (1 August 1926
Which is probably fabricated, according to the analysis in this site: http://archive.is/emTb9
"Holdwater, again: Regarding The Los Angeles Herald Examiner article... I couldn't find the professor's booklet on the Internet, except in Turkish; let me give the gist of it (as far as I can grasp): "I haven't encountered Atatürk's having spoken with such a reporter on June 22, 1926." (The date the article claimed the interview took place, and not the August 1, 1926 publication date.) It appears the professor looked into Atatürk's schedule and found several activities that occupied the Turkish leader, but there was nothing on being interviewed by a Swiss reporter. The closest thing to newspaper-related business was on June 17th.
The Professor apparently has researched interviews? Atatürk conducted with many different publications, such as The Christian Science Monitor, Le Matin, The Chicago Tribune, Le Figaro and The New York Herald, but nothing on this. In his talks, Ataturk made reference to Harbourd, Ellison, Herriot, MacArthur, Antonescu, Pernot and others, but nothing on Emile Hilderbrand. No pictures with him, either, although there are plenty with the others. The professor also checked the relevant "Who's Who" types of reference books from the period in Switzerland, in different categories, but there was no mention of Emile Hilderbrand.
Before making his paper public, the professor contacted Switzerland's relevant sources and explored all conceivable options without getting a clue as to who the writer in question could have been. He consulted a friend who was part of the diplomatic mission to Switzerland for twelve years, having a good idea on Turkish-Swiss matters, but this turned into a dead-end, as well.
Holdwater ran a comprehensive Internet search on Emile Hilderbrand, and the only sources that came up were related to the Atatürk interview. Professor Ataöv gives an example of a real interview with Atatürk, from the March 27, 1921 issue of Pennsylvania's The Public Ledger, conducted by Clarence Streit. (From another of his papers, entitled, "A 'Statement' Wrongly Attributed to Mustafa Kemal Atatürk.") Here, Atatürk focuses on the "conspiratorial nature of Armenian armed attacks, the bloodshed and massacre caused by them, endorsed by General Harbord as well." [Read More]
A far cry from what was said in the article in question, which had a smaller subtitle, " The Dictator of Turkey, in an interview with Emile Hilderbrand, a Swiss artist and journalist, on June 22." The "genocide" quote is: "These left-overs from the former Young Turkey Party, who should have been made to account for the lives of millions of our Christian subjects who were ruthlessly driven en masse, from their homes and massacred, have been restive under the Republican rule. They have hitherto lived on plunder, robbery and bribery and become inimical to any idea or suggestion to enlist in useful labor and earn their living by the honest sweat of their brow."
The definitive biographies on Ataturk (by Kinross and Mango) have ignored this sensational Hilderbrand interview, which provides supplementary evidence that it most likely never took place... and was built on the general anti-Turkish propaganda effort. In addition, the bombastic style sounds out of character. Ataturk was a very polite man who referred even to his enemies with reverence, and would not have referred to his compatriots in the manner he was quoted in the spurious interview." AnKo96X (talk) 09:50, 22 May 2018 (UTC)