Talk:Jiddu Krishnamurti

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UnsourcedEdit

Wikiquote no longer allows unsourced quotations, and they are in process of being removed from our pages (see Wikiquote:Limits on quotations); but if you can provide a reliable and precise source for any quote on this list please move it to Jiddu Krishnamurti. --Antiquary 18:56, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

  • A man who is not afraid is not aggressive, a man who has no sense of fear of any kind is really a free, a peaceful man.
  • Awareness is observation without condemnation. Awareness brings understanding because there is no condemnation or identification but silent observation. If I want to understand something, I must observe, I must not criticize, I must not condemn, I must not pursue it as pleasure or avoid it as non-pleasure. There must merely be the silent observation of a fact.
  • Freedom and love go together. Love is not a reaction. If I love you because you love me, that is mere trade, a thing to be bought in the market; it is not love. To love is not to ask anything in return, not even to feel that you are giving something—and it is only such love that can know freedom.
  • Freedom from the desire for an answer is essential to the understanding of a problem.
  • Hitler and Mussolini were only the primary spokesmen for the attitude of domination and craving for power that are in the heart of almost everyone. Until the source is cleared, there will always be confusion and hate, wars and class antagonisms.
  • If one can really come to that state of saying, 'I do not know,' it indicates an extraordinary sense of humility; there is no arrogance of knowledge; there is no self-assertive answer to make an impression. When you can actually say, 'I do not know,' which very few are capable of saying, then in that state all fear ceases because all sense of recognition, the search into memory, has come to an end; there is no longer inquiry into the field of the known.
  • In oneself lies the whole world and if you know how to look and learn, the door is there and the key is in your hand. Nobody on earth can give you either the key or the door to open, except yourself.
  • It's no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society.
  • It is truth that frees, not your effort to be free.
  • Obviously what causes war is the desire for power, position, prestige, money; also the disease called nationalism, the worship of a flag; and the disease of organized religion, the worship of a dogma. All these are the causes of war; if you as an individual belong to any of the organized religions, if you are greedy for power, if you are envious, you are bound to produce a society which will result in destruction. So again it depends upon you and not on the leaders—not on so-called statesmen and all the rest of them. It depends upon you and me but we do not seem to realize that. If once we really felt the responsibility of our own actions, how quickly we could bring to an end all these wars, this appalling misery! But you see, we are indifferent. We have three meals a day, we have our jobs, we have our bank account, big or little, and we say, 'For God's sake, don't disturb us, leave us alone'.
  • The constant assertion of belief is an indication of fear.
  • The description is not the described; I can describe the mountain, but the description is not the mountain, and if you are caught up in the description, as most people are, then you will never see the mountain.
  • The moment you have in your heart this extraordinary thing called love and feel the depth, the delight, the ecstasy of it, you will discover that for you the world is transformed.
  • Tradition becomes our security, and when the mind is secure it is in decay
  • Understanding can never be made into a habit, a matter of routine; it demands constant watchfulness, alertness. To understand, there must be pliability, sensitivity, a warmth that has nothing to do with sentimentality.
  • What is needed, rather than running away or controlling or suppressing or any other resistance, is understanding fear; that means, watch it, learn about it, come directly into contact with it. We are to learn about fear, not how to escape from it.
  • You must understand the whole of life, not just one little part of it. That is why you must read, that is why you must look at the skies, that is why you must sing and dance, and write poems and suffer and understand, for all that is life…

Lengthy passagesEdit

Please review Wikiquote:Limits on quotations. The article should quote brief, pithy, widely quoted statements, not reproduce entire pages from www.jkrishnamurti.org. ~ Ningauble 16:27, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I have removed the most blatant copies of entire pages. ~ Ningauble 16:09, 9 March 2010 (UTC)
There are no copyright issues with the material you removed as per jkrishnamurti.org:
"J.Krishnamurti Online is a unique initiative of the four Krishnamurti Foundations (KFT, KFA, KFI and FKL) to make the teachings of J. Krishnamurti available and freely downloadable and to guarantee authenticity."
I agree with the removal though, as per WikiQuote guidelines.

No copyright issuesEdit

I would like to mention that the section "More quotes from various sources" has no copyright issues. They are taken from official website of J Krishnamurti Daily quotes. Pl let me know, if any more clarifications is needed in this regard. ~Thendral Muthusami

Unrelated categories and unnecessary links.Edit

K was not a "mystic". The inclusion of this category is a misrepresentation. The majority of external links are unnecessary or superfluous. Some exist in the wikipedia article which is the relevant place. The only "necessary" link I can think of is to the site whose copyright-free content is reproduced in many of the included quotes. (I haven't yet checked all quotes against that site, but I will). Thank you.

Original editors and doing it rightEdit

It would be nice if the people who originally inserted all these quotes, took the time to cite them properly. By all means do NOT come here to insert something "pithy" or "cool" or "deep" if you are not going to respect the venue that gives you the opportunity to show how much with it you are. That's my opinion anyway, for whatever it's worth. 65.88.88.127 21:02, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Massive cleanupEdit

I am currently engaged in a massive cleanup of this page, organizing it along the chronological presentation framework which is standard here at Wikiquote. I have already done some work on this in several sessions, but do not expect to be done with it for at least a day or more. I will meanwhile be doing other things as well, and there will probably be several hours at a time when I don't give it my attentions, yet I don't expect for this work to take more than two days, at present. ~ Kalki (talk · contributions) 20:58, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

I am still engaged in this, but far more extensive concerns have interrupted me, and I probably won't be finished with this for at least another day. ~ Kalki (talk · contributions) 21:20, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
I appreciate your efforts here. Imo, the article is overloaded with quotes that are repetitive and come across as dry and instructional. Certainly Krishnamurti said many original and interesting things in short sentences (which he generally followed with lengthy explanations). It seems not many of these striking quotes are included in the current version. Also absent are some of his more famous utterances. I believe the article needs a complete rethink + rewrite, with proper citations. Thanks. 65.88.88.173 18:40, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
I am still not finished with what has been primarily tedious re-organization work along normal structuring of articles (which isn't the most interesting or important thing I could normally be doing). I don't intend to remove anything actually, and at this point have not added much, though I do have some of Krishnamurti's works I will probably gradually quote from after the reorganization is finished — which I presently do expect will be finished within the next two days, and possibly even later today — though I still have quite a bit to do. As soon as I am done, you are quite welcome to add whatever quotes you have found most striking, and I will probably add a few of those I find so within a month or so. ~ Kalki (talk · contributions) 20:49, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
That's fair. One ?: why not remove some of the quotes around the same subject, or ones that read like a book section? I also think it should be appropriate to find out whether the copyright template is justified here. Thanks. 65.88.88.173 21:00, 16 May 2011 (UTC)
I am not prone to remove material, and often object when others do — I continue to simply reorganize the material, and have been gradually adding only a small amount of material which I have come across while sourcing or checking some of the existing material. I usually like doing such things in one session when possible, but I knew that such was unlikely on extensive revisions such as this page required. Many other concerns and considerations regularly interrupted me, even when I did get around to working on this, and though I am making progress, and have added a few things, there is still much to do in the re-organization. This is probably the last comment I make before I actually finish — but though I hope and will attempt to make that so within the next day — I will not make any strong assurances that it will be. ~ Kalki (talk · contributions) 21:47, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Objections about the "Massive Cleanup"Edit

I'm sorry, but I think it is a regression, even though the quotes are for the most part properly formatted.

Why embellish the quotes with pictures, symbols, or anything? This comes very close to editorializing - by implicitly linking words of Krishnamurti to unrelated images that the editor thinks best fit them. The picture of Krishnamurti is relevant; the rest is interpretation imo.
A lot of the quotes are too long or just too abstract and uninteresting. For example, the quote from his Notebook "There's a great and unutterable beauty in all this." "All this" what? What unutterable beauty is he talking about? It doesn't really make sense, and makes him sound dotty. Basically one has to read pages and pages from the Notebook before they begin to understand what he's talking about. As it stands now, the quote is just taking space. I think quotes like "Truth is a pathless land" or "You can't find god" or "All thought corrupts" are more likely to arouse somebody's interest, especially if they are linked (through J. Krishnamurti Online) to the text that provides the proper context and background.
The page still subs quantity for clarity and quality, and it still has shades of hagiography
I think all the existing links in "External links" except J. Krishnamurti Online (JKO) are unneccessary. JKO's content is the most likely to be authentic - we are talking about a quotes page whose authenticity and verifiability should be readily available. As for the social network-type links, I really don't see why they are needed, or relevant here.

Again, I'm sorry for raining on Kalki's parade, s/he did a lot of work here, but I think the page did not improve. 65.88.88.200 00:43, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

will try to edit the page eventually. the thing is, even before considering the editorializing, all these pics + clip art makes the page look like a shrine and is circous-like. as for the quotes: if one purpose of person quotes are to arouse some interest in the person, i don't see how the included quotes can hope to do that. he comes across as a verbose wag overly fond of abstractions or lofty, "spiritual", new-age-speak. in the meantime, don't wait for me, anyone else can chip in on this. 65.88.88.127 20:48, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
Images are such things as I believe MOST people find make pages more interesting, and can help highlight major statements on large pages. I find this generally MUCH more desirable than massive trimming of material which adds significant context to a few famous short phrases as you have proposed. MOST of this material was added by others, and I have simply RETAINED it and organized it more along the lines of general guidelines long in effect here — which discourage "topic" based sections, and promote generally chronological presentations of material. I am generally respectful of Krishnamurti, and many other mystically oriented philosophers, who often perceive things in ways which are indeed inexpressable and incommunicable to minds not yet perceptive of many aspects of Reality. I think the material should be retained, but in no way would I seek to remove quotes critical of Krishnamurti by notable assessors of his work, and I might even seek some in creating a section for quotes about him. It is not likely to be a top priority of tasks for me to do here though, and I might not begin on that for a few days.
As to the links elsewhere I believe it is generally a very good thing to have an abundance to links to external material for people to develop their own assessments based on diversities of opinions — and not have them channeled to any restrictive views about what material or opinions should be presented. "There's a great and unutterable beauty in all this." Always and everywhere, in ALL which abides. ~ Kalki (talk · contributions) 21:07, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
ok, so that's your opinion of K. the thing is, all of your comments above, and the page as it stands now, belong to "Kalki's webpage about Jiddu Krishnamurti", not necessarily here. the fact remains that K's quotes have nothing to do with the images you posted, or with your analysis of him. why not let the quotes speak for themselves? and also, why all this preaching to the choir? i doubt people who know nothing or very little about K will find most of the included quotes sufficiently notable, interesting, or pithy (isn't that what Wikiquote is supposed to be about?). it's not as if he didn't actually make such statements. it's a pity they are not included here. 65.88.88.127 21:47, 27 May 2011 (UTC)
Actually I know this page is NOT primarily my own work, and I believe I have actually added very few of the quotes as yet on this page. Apart from the EXTREMELY tedious work of arranging things in a general chronological order, as accords to policies here, I have simply added a few quotes and such graphic material as does actually relate to the subjects of the quotes which are ued to caption them, in ways which I do think add visual and intellectual stimulation. ~ Kalki (talk · contributions) 22:43, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

restoration of imagesEdit

A short time ago, I restored images that were selected to highlight some aspects of the significance of particular quotations in such ways as is often done in the presentation of statements of fact or opinions about facts or opinions. It can be perceived that all of nature and Reality is infused with images and indications of complex forms of significance, if one is not blind, including the symbols which indicate speech and thought in complex ways which can sometimes be used to exalt the splendors of many aspects of diverse perceptions, and sometimes to magnify and exalt the suppressive and constraining inclinations of those who have poor or shallow imaginations, and often insist on adhering rigorously to quite dull and overly simplistic interpretations of many things.

When one cannot or will not recognize and deal with the existence and utility and beneficial aspects of images to highlight and prompt musings and consideration of broader ideas than might be immediately apparent to one's own limited senses and sensibilities, one often descends into a particularly barren and suppressive idolatry in regards to words and statements made with them, and often very narrow and shallow interpretations of such. Images and reality and those intellects and imaginations which most delight in them often are NOT such things as ever fit easily or entirely into the limited pigeon holes or categories of those most obsessed with classifying anything and all things in absolutist and often arrogantly suppressive ways with such simple tools of the mind as words and labels. Thus I assert that the suppression of images which indicate complex imaginations at work in the world is never actually so "neutral" an act as some are inclined to assume or insist that it is. I do acknowledge that images are not innately neutral, any more than words are, but I also insist that neither are they so innately or obviously meaningful in any particular ways, such as those of little experience or insight often assume they are — but they can be indications of doorways and windows to both greater meaning and greater transcendence of meanings than are immediately apparent to shallow literalistic, legalistic or otherwise constrained or underdeveloped imaginations. Thus I believe they can usually be welcomed, and generally are welcomed, in many projects where complex ideas are presented and well honored, and shallow unimaginative rules are not mandated by those who find paths of suppression and destruction of imaginatively presented indications of actual or potential relationships convenient and satisfying. I have always found many words to be cumbersome and not innately neutral at all — but would not seek to pretend to "neutralize" any or all assertions by forbidding certain words, or all words. When in states of earnest attention to such aspects of Reality as matter most, the wisest transcend many distractions, including those of words as well as images — and yet generally welcome the existence of many pathways to transcendence, including those presented or indicated by words, images and symbols of thoughts and such aspects or essences of Reality as ever dwell beyond all these. ~ Kalki·· 11:29, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

Kalki: I have the feeling that the way you express yourself is unnecessarily sophisticated, that your verbosity is very difficult to deal with. I don't think that any discussion with you would in any way make you change your mind, and it is sad that such strong opinions must influence the experience of many other people. I am not trying to initiate a debate or accuse you but I thought that it is important to let you know how other people can feel about your unshakeable certainty about so many things! 13 Sept 2013
Last modified on 13 September 2013, at 20:20