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Hypocritical Toy Story IP vandal...Edit
- It accuses me of ruining what it thought was updating the Toy Story page, which had been protected for a year before for good reason. But all of its edits were nothing but blatant vandalism and violation of copyright. I request this user be blocked for no less than a year and all articles it vandalized, including all Toy Story articles, be protected for no less than the same period of time. DawgDeputy (talk) 02:51, 29 January 2020 (UTC)
The original Toy Story vandal...Edit
- It is taking its vandalism out on the Thomas & Friends franchise. I request this vandal be range-blocked, and all Thomas & Friends pages be protected indefinitely. DawgDeputy (talk) 21:41, 1 February 2020 (UTC)
IP vandal on War crimesEdit
- Done GMGtalk 19:34, 2 February 2020 (UTC)
- Creation of a page for Robert Faurisson, an Holocaust denier. Olivia's version referred to Faurisson as merely "an author" and provided citations which are supportive of his right to deny the Holocaust and which claim that Holocaust denial is not antisemitism. This is an extremely biaised treatment of the subject. Faurisson is known only for his Holocaust denial, and he is almost universally reviled and considered an antisemite for that. This is using Wikiquote to whitewash Holocaust denial.
- Creation of a page for Harold Wallace Rosenthal featuring an Elders-of-Zion-esque unsourced wall of text where Rosenthal alledgedly reveals a global jewish conspiracy, plus a quote about Rosenthal which makes the same claim. The fantasy text attributed to Rosenthal is marked "disputed" - an extreme understatement. This is using Wikiquote to spread an antisemtic propaganda text.
- GEG for the Harold Wallace Rosenthal article when I made it in July 2019 I would've used a stronger term like "Misattributed" (or "Fabricated") for "The Hidden Tyranny" if I actually had proof it was fabricated/misattributed. I had encountered skepticism about it, which is why disputed felt appropriate at minimum. The existence of "Hidden Tyranny" is notable. You can see for example this April 2019 on Jerusalem Post makes reference to it:
- Two years later, the “Rosenthal interview” was printed in an obscure white supremacist newsletter. Subsequently turned into a pamphlet called The Hidden Tyranny and posted online, the interview has since has become infamous in neo-Nazi and conspiracy theory circles.
- As for finding a source for the actual quotes excerpt from it, I can't recall exactly where I had at the time (this was seven months ago) but possibly here or here. Would you prefer one of those be linked so people can affirm the sentences were correctly transcribed?
- GEG as for Robert Faurisson, you should keep in mind that the first noun used to describe him on Wikipedia is actually "academic" (which is what Risto changed it to), so I would consider "author" by comparison to be a demotion rather than an enhancement as you seem to imply. Though I intended neither: "author" is simply briefer than "academic".
- The present form of Faurisson's article seems to disagree with your "known only for his Holocaust denial" claim: it only says "BEST known". So he IS known for other things, even though they are are second-fiddle.
- As for my quoting what Chomsky wrote about him: Noam Chomsky is a significant figure, so I don't see why I should exclude his quote merely because you don't like what Chomsky had to say about Faurisson.
- If quoting Chomsky is "whitewashing Holocaust denial" then it seems like you are basically saying that Chomsky himself was whitewashing Holocaust denial, which I do NOT agree with.
- Noam_Chomsky#Edward_S._Herman_and_the_Faurisson_affair:_1976–80 covers this, it was a significant controversy, so Chomsky's quote regarding Faurisson is definitely notable enough to include here.
- Your addition of Dershowitz' comment on what Chomsky said regarding Faurisson helped to add additional context so thanks for that. I believe I was negligent in overlooking that followup quote further down the page. Olivia comet (talk) 17:49, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
- Olivia, thank you for your answer.
- The source you give literally calls The Hidden Tyranny a "judeophobic hoax" right in its title. It clarifies that "(Dr. Mark Pitcavage, senior research fellow at the Anti-Defamation League’s Center on Extremism), who has been studying the phenomenon of extremist groups since the mid-1990s, noted that even self-described white supremacists have debunked the interview." Can you honestly call that "disputed" ? Are we to seriously consider the theory that Rosenthal identified as a member of the all-powerful evil jewish conspiracy ?
- I would prefer that Wikiquote does not engage in racist defamation at all. I hope the project already has guidelines against that.
- I am ok with Faurisson being called an author or an academic. I am NOT ok with him NOT being called a Holocaust denialist, which implies being a racist activist and a liar, and which he was best known for. I am not interested in discussing the best/only distinction - calling him "best known for his Holocaust denial" would have been fine but you did not do that.
- Quoting Chomsky's support for Faurisson is ok. Quoting it and not the rest of the story - the majority viewpoint, exemplified by Dershowitz, that Faurisson was a racist liar and Chomsky was misguided at best - is NOT ok.
- In case you are sincere, you have indeed shown extreme negligence in both cases (although I wonder how you "negligently" stumbled upon an obscure antisemitic pamphlet like Opal Tanner White's - oh, and you called her "Harold's widow" - another negligence ?). Context is important. When the context is the Holocaust, it is frigging super important. In case the admins trust you to continue operating on Wikiquote, please be super careful
orand avoid hate speech related topics.--GrandEscogriffe (talk) 01:37, 18 February 2020 (UTC)
@GrandEscogriffe: the inclusion of a quote here is not meant to deny it being a hoax. That's why I never listed it under "quotes" as I would do if it seemed to be a legitimate one. Yes I can call it "Disputed"... "Misattributed" is basically a subgroup of "Disputed" where we have reliable sources that dispute a quote, so we trust those sources and upgrade it from "Disputed" to "Misattributed". I think all "Misattributed" quotes are technically still "Disputed", just that there isn't MUCH of a dispute still going on, as there is largely consensus among trusted experts that it is false, and only fringe arguers make unsupported arguments that it is true. I think that's basically why we introduce purported quotes in order of reliability : Quotes > Disputed > Misattributed.
You mention that "white supremacists have debunked the interview", and that is entirely the reason why I was hesitant to upgrade it to 'Misattributed' from the outset. We would not consider white supremacists to be inherently trustworthy or reliable sources in other circumstances, so why would I consider them to be trustworthy here? For all I know, this might just be infighting.
While I don't take seriously the claim that Rosenthal identified this way, Pitcavage is probably referencing Metzger as one of his sources (not sure who the other would be, since it was plural) but I basically have no grounds on which to trust anything Metzger says, as I would assume him to be an untrustworthy individual. In the very same quote Metzger also says "There is plenty of valid material to use against the Jews" but that doesn't mean we believe Metzger about that, right?
I don't object to your adding text like "Holocaust denialist", and I haven't removed it. But I don't personally feel obligated to add information like that, since I find it to be a confusing expression. I've seen it used for those who deny all aspects, and also for those who want to revise 1 aspect. I wasn't the one who added that information to Wikipedia and I don't simply copy and paste Wikipedia introductions here. Being concerned with BLP and NPOV, I make sure I only add things I've personally verified. "Author" is usually a low-effort descriptor I use since that's obviously very easy to verify (they wrote something) and doesn't require me to do a lengthy analysis of someone.
You can see an example of such brevity here where I just use 'businessman' instead of the "investor, philanthropist, and political donor" stuff later added (I assume just copied from Wikipedia intro) later. It's just how I write, because I'm focused on adding the quote, not duplicating Wikipedia.
I disagree that it's "not okay" of me to have not quoted Dershowitz. I realize this is hard for you to accept (since it was further down on the same page I cited) but I'm pretty sure I never actually saw that quote. I know it did not even occur to me to add it to the 'about' section, because I would've been glad to do that to help make the page more impressive. Dershowitz is actually a pretty cool guy and I think I would've been thrilled to add him. Text just overwhelms me sometimes so I can focus purely just on what quote I was searching for, otherwise I'll get distracted reading the rest of Google Books and lose track of time.
"Harold's widow" was a major gaff and I'm glad you caught that. I think it's pretty obvious that I had intended to call her "Walter's widow" but had a brain hiccup. Had I intended to imply she was actually Harold Rosenthal's widow, I would've just called her "Opal" (or used no name at all) not "Opal White", which clearly creates an association with "Walter White" used in the previous sentence.
Toy Story vandal...Edit
Now a Thomas & Friends vandal. I request all Thomas & Friends articles be protected indefinitely so we never deal with this vandal again, and that drastic action be taken against it, as well. DawgDeputy (talk) 22:49, 16 February 2020 (UTC)
- That iteration of this particular vandal-twerp has now been blocked. ~ ♞☤☮♌︎Kalki·⚚⚓︎⊙☳☶⚡ 23:25, 17 February 2020 (UTC)
- I've salted it for a month - if it continues after that, we can protect it for longer. I'd hate to block it indefinitely as someone someday might actually create a useful page for this character. ~ UDScott (talk) 12:46, 18 February 2020 (UTC)