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Talk:Vladimir Lenin

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"One man with a gun can control 100 without one"Edit

I've seen this quote pop up a lot, but have never seen a credible source to back it up. Did Lenin really say this?

terrorismEdit

how about "the purpose of terrorism is to terrorise" ??? - Google brings up supposedly attributed to Lenin ......

—This unsigned comment is by 80.5.160.5 (talkcontribs) .¨

Do you have a source for it? What is the source of google?

SourcesEdit

I've added a Sourced section for quotes that have specific sources. However, none of these quotes have them as yet. It appears people have been considering quotes that include the original Russian as something other than "attributed". It's great to have the Russian, but the sources are just as important for ensuring the accuracy that Wikiquote strives for. Any assistance on this matter would be greatly appreciated. And if there are quotes that are commonly misattributed to Lenin, they should not be deleted, but should be placed in a Misattributed section, both to avoid continual addition and deletion, and to help Wikiquote be a source for correcting such misattributions. Thank you for your help. — Jeff Q (talk) 20:24, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

The telegramEdit

Why is this telegram about hanging kulaks published here? okay it may be fact that the telegram has been send by Lenin, but why put it here on the quotes section? if you want to quote telegrams, please not only quote the "negative" telegrams, but also the "positive". To me this seems like clear bourgeois selective media (only showing the little negative sides of a thing that is acually good and helpfull, to make it look evil and distructive, or the other way around). One of the many tactics in the bourgeois armory of media and thought conrtoll. I have removed the telegram from the main page and put it here. By: Bobby Siecker.

—This unsigned comment is by 86.84.223.146 (talkcontribs) .
Welcome to the Internet, Bobby. Around here, we let the good and the bad sit side by side. There'll be no 1930s style Soviet censorship around here. --Nikolaus Maack 15:20, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

The telegram (removed from main page, see topic above for details)Edit

The following is a telegram sent by Lenin to the communist authorities in Nizjnij-Novgord, 11 August 1918. Source: Library of Congress exhibition.

  • "Товарищи! Восстание пяти волостей кулачья должно повести к беспощадному подавлению. Этого требует интерес всей революции, ибо теперь взят "последний решительный бой" с кулачьем. Образец надо дать.
    1) Повесить, (непременно повесить, чтобы народ видел) не меньше 100 заведомых кулаков, богатеев, кровопийц.
    2) Опубликовать их имена.
    3) Отнять у них весь хлеб.
    4) Назначить заложников — согласно вчерашней телеграмме.
    Сделать так, чтобы на сотни верст кругом народ видел, трепетал, знал, кричал: душат и задушат кровопийц-кулаков.
    Телеграфируйте получение и исполнение. Ваш Ленин.
    P.S. Найдите людей потверже."
    • Translation: "Comrades! The revolt by the five kulak volost's must be suppressed without mercy. The interest of the entire revolution demands this, because we have now before us our final decisive battle "with the kulaks." We need to set an example.
      1) You need to hang (hang without fail, so that the public sees) at least 100 notorious kulaks, the rich, and the bloodsuckers.
      2) Publish their names.
      3) Take away all of their grain.
      4) Execute the hostages - in accordance with yesterday's telegram.
      This needs to be accomplished in such a way, that people for hundreds of miles around will see, tremble, know and scream out: let's choke and strangle those blood-sucking kulaks.
      Telegraph us acknowledging receipt and execution of this. Yours, Lenin
      P.S. Use your toughest people for this."

Not sureEdit

I thought I read in a history manual that "where there's a will, there's a way" was Lenin's.

—This unsigned comment is by 68.160.178.199 (talkcontribs) .

I am removing all of the quotes that have no reference. These would not be tolerated elsewhere, so I dont see why they should be here, esp when the majority are highly dubious, to say the least!

—This unsigned comment is by 130.88.185.101 (talkcontribs) .

What the?!Edit

What have you done? you removed all the quotes without putting them in a "misatrubuted" section! This is just bloody vandalism! Dubious?! Lenin's Quotes Dubious? Are you out of your mind? In my opinion I have rarely seen such accurate and sharp quotes as with Lenin!

I'm working on to get the quotations back now...

Damn! Wikipedia a free encyclopedia? Yeah right... Bourgeois cencorship EVERYWHERE!

O, by the way... the telegram... I'm not shure whether it is really Lenin's for it is sourced from an american state library... have not yet found it in the collected lenin works... I keep looking.

Bobby Siecker.

—This unsigned comment is by 86.84.223.146 (talkcontribs) .

Wrong translationEdit

4) Назначить заложников — согласно вчерашней телеграмме

is translated as

4) Execute the hostages - in accordance with yesterday's telegram.

That's silly because назначить means "to designate" in Russian. Anyone can check this in any dictionary.

—This unsigned comment is by 83.237.184.145 (talkcontribs) .
Yes, I second it. The phrase means "designate hostages" (select some people as hostages)--Nekto 16:19, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Can we make this article not sound so negative?Edit

First of all, let me make it clear that I do not advocate censorship in any form unless for if it is saving lives.

The sentiment in this article is very clearly anti-Lenin. I know that nowadays people do not respect him for his politics, but I think we can all agree he was a very smart man. As such, I believe it's unfair and biased to have the article consist almost entirely of "negative" quotes that make it seem as though he is an advocate of needless bloodshed and totalitarianism (in truth he was an extremely ardent supporter of workers' council democracy, though Stalin destroyed the seeds of democracy and replaced them with bloated bureaucracies.) In order for this article to be halfway decent and informative, we need to replace most of these with his "positive" quotes -- quotes that actually show what he stood for, that will be recognized by people familiar with his work, and that demonstrate what he did with his life. He didn't spend his days signing death warrents and taking political prisoners, though the bourgeois mass media would certainly like for people to think that. He was a revolutionary and extraordinary visionary.

I have a lot of books and pamphlets written by Lenin and would be glad to do this work, though it would be very nice if other people also contribute to reconstructing this article. I'd like to get a couple comments on this idea before I start replacing quotes in the article, though. I won't meddle with it if people are vehemently against what I say here, and don't want to be accused of vandalism. 71.198.98.233 04:43, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

To make a balanced article, it would be better to add quotes rather than subtract them. Balance results from quotations which give us, in total, a more complex portrait. Subtracting quotations, especially sourced ones, provokes edit wars. There are some legitimate reasons for deleting quotations, but not many. There are editors who, in their zeal to make a case against someone, will add dozens of quotes making the same point many times over. They will demonstrate, for example, that someone was bigoted by finding as many statements of this bigotry as possible. In such a case it would be sensible to eliminate the redundancies. If you believe that the current quotations about Lenin are belabored, you could make such a case before proceeding to remove some of them. But it would be preferable, as mentioned, simply to add the quotations which will give us a more balanced view. - InvisibleSun 06:13, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Mussolini QuoteEdit

The Mussolini Quote is deliberately misleading to make people believe that Lenin advocated a fascist Mussolini to take power. There should be a date added to this quote immideatly, to distinguish the socialist Mussolini that Lenin refers to from the later and more famous fascist Mussolini.

Moreover I find this article to focus purely on Lenin's negative quotes. Lenin's humanist elements and deeply complex political ideas are entirely missed here. This is a bad article and needs improvement.

—This unsigned comment is by 82.12.217.167 (talkcontribs) .

Falsified SourceEdit

You must...instantly introduce mass terror, shoot and transport hundreds of prostitutes who get the soldiers drunk, ex-officers, etc. Not a minute to be wasted...You must act at full stretch: mass searches. Executions for possession of weapons. Mass deportations of Mensheviks and unreliable elements. Telegram of 9 August, 1918. Collected Works: Volume 28 (1965), p. 142.

This quotation is nowhere to be found in the collected works. It will be removed. http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/cw/volume28.htm

—This unsigned comment is by 204.102.211.115 (talkcontribs) .


REPLY: It is from Richard Pipes' book, The Russian Revolution, page 817. He in turn provides the following citation: "Lenin, PSS, XXXVI, 142."

Attributed quotesEdit

Quotations by partisan sources such as Volkogonov, Leggett, and "The Black Book" are not acceptable because they are selective in their quotations and take them out of context. The only acceptable quotations are those published in Lenin's collected works.
Added by 204.102.211.115, 21:29, 19 December 2007

That is not the policy here. We accept quotations from all reliable sources. If something is out of context, please add some context but do not remove sourced material.--Cato 22:17, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
Actually, you removed more than 10 quotations [[1] One such quote, "catch and shoot Astrakhan speculators" is blatantly selective. Another quotation from the polemical "Black Book of Communism" takes Lenin's writing on the term 'dictatorship' out of context. Out of Lenin's 50 volume collected works, the call to use violence against opponents is found in maybe 10 pages. Yet the version of the article that you submitted has a majority of quotations in such a situation. My version is proportional, as it comprises Lenin's call to crush the White Czechs and to deport prostitutes in Nizhni. Curiously, your version does not include the statement "Violence is of course alien to our ideals" which effectively contradicts many of the quotations attributed to Lenin by certain polemecists..
Added by 204.102.211.115, 22:31, 19 December 2007

It is not my version. If you wish to add properly sourced quotes, please do so. However, please do not remove properly sourced material. If you keep doing so, I shall have to block you from editing.--Cato 22:37, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Material that is taken deliberately taken out of context and material that is selective will be removed. This article is hardly representative of Lenin's works. It's interesting that while you accuse me of removing sourced material, you just submitted a version that deleted ten of my quotes.
—This unsigned comment is by 204.102.211.115 (talkcontribs) .

TelegramEdit

Is there any particular reason why a single telegram deserves from 11 August 1918 deserves to be given a degree of emphasis that exceeds any other quote? There is nothing outstanding about this particular document, as about half a dozen similar documents can be found in Lenin's published Collected Works including the telegram about the suppression of the White Czechs and the deportation of prostitutes. Unless a sufficient explanation is provided, it is headed straight to the trash bin.

Distorted and Selective QuotationsEdit

The polemical Black Book of Communism allegedly quotes Lenin as having said: *"Dictatorship is rule based directly on force and unrestricted by any laws. The revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat is rule won and maintained through the use of violence by the proletariat against the bourgeoisie, rule that is unrestricted by any laws."**Stephan Courtois,

However, this is taken out of context. It is impossible to reconcile with the following quote:

*From the vulgar bourgeois standpoint the terms of dictatoship and democracy are mutually exclusive. Failing to understand the theory of class struggle and accustomed to seeing in the political arena the petty squabbling of the various bourgeois circles and coteries, the bourgeois understands by dictatorship the annulment of all liberties and guarantees of democracy, arbitrariness of every kind, and every sort of abuse of power, in a dictator's personal interests.

Yeltsin's partner Volkogonov, who is not a historian, quotes Lenin as having said:

*"... catch and shoot the Astrakhan speculators and bribe-takers. These swine have to be dealt [with] so that everyone will remember it for years."

However, this quotation is selective and fails to provide context. Hence, it will be removed.

*"Let them shoot on the spot every tenth man guilty of idleness." This cannot be found in Lenin's Collected Works. Without a source or even context, this cannot be included.

*"Russians are too kind, they lack the ability to apply determined methods of revolutionary terror." This is another deceptive, selective quotation by Vologonov who is not a historian.

*You must...instantly introduce mass terror, shoot and transport hundreds of prostitutes who get the soldiers drunk, ex-officers, etc. Not a minute to be wasted...You must act at full stretch: mass searches. Executions for possession of weapons. Mass deportations of Mensheviks and unreliable elements. This is a selective quotation which does not mention the first sentence about a revolt in Nizhni. This cannot be included.

*"Surely you do not imagine that we shall be victorious without applying the most cruel revolutionary terror?" This cannot be found in Lenin's collected works.

*"Until we apply terror to speculators - shooting on the spot - we won’t get anywhere." Leggett takes this out of context which refers to a chronic food shortage.
[Edit made 23:21, 19 December 2007 by 204.102.211.115--Cato 20:13, 22 December 2007 (UTC)]

If a quote exists in different versions in different sources, please give both forms with approipriate references. If there is evidence that a particular quote was not said by Lenin, please cite it.--Cato 20:13, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Name?Edit

I have a problem with the way Lenin's name is quoted at the top of this article : Vladimir Ilyich Lenin (Russian: Влади́мир Ильи́ч Ульянов). Lenin was the secret party name of Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov, which is the Russian name quoted here. I'm not sure that his given name and the patronymic were ever used with his party name, but if they were, it was a bit of a bastardisation of the two different names that he went under during his life. In any case I think it is misleading to say that Vladimir Ilyich Lenin translates into Russian as Влади́мир Ильи́ч Ульянов, because it doesn't. It translates into Влади́мир Ильи́ч Ленін. So, in my view the name should read : Lenin (Russian: Ленін), secret name of Vladimir Ilyich Ulyanov (Russian: Влади́мир Ильи́ч Ульянов). --Recoloniser 19:11, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm not going to revert this, but our normal policy would be to use the name by which someone is generally known. All the standard reference works, e.g. Encyclopaedia Britannica, do call him Vladimir Ilich Lenin.--Cato 20:17, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Kazan CzechsEdit

Leggett misuqotes Lenin. [2] The version found in Lenin's collected works is different [3]

Am sure that the crushing of the Kazan Czechs and whiteguards, as well as of the kulak extortioners supporting them, will be exemplarily ruthless.

—This unsigned comment is by 204.102.210.1 (talkcontribs) .
These are simply variant translations of the message, and I have placed the other one below this on the page. ~ Kalki 23:52, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Collective WorksEdit

It is doubtful to cite the Collective Works as a source, although they are the primary source for many quotes. The collective works were censored and altered under the ruel of Stalin, to make Stalin the obvius heir of Lenin. It should be considered an 'unsure' or direct false source. I suggest that the qoutes from there is labeled as 'Doubtful' or 'Unsure'

Are you retarded? This is the single most useful primary source on Lenin.

Falsified quotationsEdit

A stern warning to User:76.182.185.249: do not vandalize this article with manipulative and distorted quotations. You have cited academically bankrupt hacks like Volkogonov, who was not even a professional historian. Do not continue to hijack and provoke an edit war for propaganda purposes.

One of your phony quotations reads as if Lenin specifically called for these acts:

"The killing of spies, policemen, gendarmes, the blowing up of police stations... [must start] at a moment’s notice."

In fact, Lenin was describing what had occurred in peripheral regions of Russia:

"The killing of spies, policemen, gendarmes, the blowing up of police stations, the liberation of prisoners, the seizure of government funds for the needs of the uprising—such operations are already being carried out wherever insurrection is rife, in Poland and in the Caucasus"

—This unsigned comment is by 76.191.230.8 (talkcontribs) .
I have restored unwarranted deletions you just attempted under very false pretexts, implying they were all from "unreliable sources" and extended the quote you here question for proper context, as it appears at the source you provided, which does reveal the selective editing of the quote had severely mangled it. When such distortions are perceived to occur, it is usually best to provide the full context, rather than simply removing the quote. ~ Kalki 12:33, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
I have again restored or extended some quotes, and arranged the currently dated quotes chronologically by original source, which is one of the preferred arrangements on all pages here, in response to an editor or editors making removals with largely deficient comments like "Another dishonest, selective quote" while themselves make extremely selective edits, which include highly selective additions which ignore much of the content and context of Lenin's statements, while apparently attempting to expurgate anything that might further tarnish his less than sterling reputation as a political leader. The article exists neither to whitewash nor to blacken Lenin's politics or policies, but to present quotations by or about him which people find notable, for various reasons, and it is to be expected that there will be people who find different things more interesting or notable than others. I actually have very little time to spend on this matter or many others at Wikiquote currently, and am not likely to have much more time for at least another week. ~ Kalki 19:21, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
This page needs much work, with more dates provided of original sources and material arranged chronologically based on these sources, as this is the standard for pages for specific authors. Where dates of production or publication are known, other arrangements merely based on editor preferences should never supersede these, and contested material should not simply be removed without a general agreement that the removal is appropriate. ~ Kalki 22:58, 16 August 2009 (UTC)
what would u expect on wikiquote, nothin good!lol : —This unsigned comment is by 64.107.0.203 (talkcontribs) .
I actually expect a lot of good here, but I don't expect much good to normally come of remarks of idiotic trolls. May you come to see how idiotically time and life wasting your activities are, and actually begin to engage in something that is truly constructive with your life. ~ Kalki (talk · contributions) 22:44, 23 April 2010 (UTC)
i cant believe THIS IDIOT LIKES TO FALL INTO TRAPS BY SIMPLY REPLYING, HE KEEPS ON REPEATING SAME BS, SHAME! BUT WHEN HE IS INCORRECT SOMEHOW IN HIS MIND HE IS CORRECT, WHAT HYPOCRITE, WRITES QUOTES BUT NEVER FOLLOWS EM!
—This unsigned comment is by 64.107.3.126 (talkcontribs) .
Unlike many idiots, I am willing to allow most idiots to make their most absurd assertions to the fullest extent they wish to — and then I might choose to be silent, or make such responses as skewer their presumptions to the fullest extent possible, and let the verdicts of Time and Eternity gradually reveal who has made the most idiotic and closed-minded of assertions. ~ Kalki (talk · contributions) 10:55, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

MedicineEdit

Often attributed to Lenin is some variant on the following: Medecine is the keystone of the arch of socialism.

Can somebody find a source and add it to the wiki? Thank you.

The quote you are probably referencing is: "Socialized medicine is the keystone to the arch of the socialized state." For a variety of reasons, it is suspect. However, I do agree it needs to be addressed either way. --Surv1v4l1st 19:54, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

Here is an interesting link that argues the quote was essentially "made up" by a PR firm employed by the American Medical Association in the 1940's. The book is called "The Heart of Power: Health and Politics in the Oval Office", by Blumenthal and Morone. Link is here: http://books.google.com/books?id=UEGLO9YUecEC&pg=PA92&lpg=PA92&#v=onepage&q&f=false on page 92. At the least, the quote is suspect. 134.193.172.127 20:55, 11 October 2013 (UTC)GJW

Thank you for that useful information. I have listed the fake Lenin quote under Misattributed. ~ Robin Lionheart (talk) 17:34, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

On sourcesEdit

Quotations with citations from Volkogonov, Pipes, and other polemically motivated works will be removed due to dubious reliability. For example, this work says about Volkogonov: [4]

*"Автор выдавал себя за ученого, за исследователя. (Posing as a scientific researcher)

*" А книга Д. Волкогонова лжива от начала до конца. С лжи он начинает, ложью и заканчивает. (‎Volkogonov's book is misleading from start to finish. He begins with lies and ends with a lie.)

—This unsigned comment is by 76.191.230.178 (talkcontribs) .
This assertion is absurdly presumptive. The removal of quotes from widely published sources (and even the removing them to disputed sections), would require more than a general and automatic indictment of anything as quoted by some author or authors as merely polemical distortions. Most people are quite aware that all manner of distortions occur for various reasons, and to merely cite a statement that someone's book is "misleading from start to finish…He begins with lies and ends with a lie" no more automatically disqualifies quotations from such a work or author than the reliability of some assertion is guaranteed because it was published in the pages of Pravda (Truth). ~ Kalki (talk · contributions) 10:48, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
The alleged quotes are not widely published, but are limited to the methodologically flawed and partisan works of propagandists like Volkogonov and controversial historians like Pipes. The quotes inserted by the anon user seek to re-insert deceptive quotes that were corrected earlier on this talk page. Reliable sources should not be extensively criticized the way Pipes has been. Volkogonov cannot even begin to be taken seriously as a scholar, as he was nothing of the kind, but rather a propagandist. There are dozens of fine scholars who have produced excellent scientific works on Russian history, but Volkogonov and Pipes are hardly representative of the scholarly community's views.
For example, the anon user adds this totally distorted quote that changes the context:
Use] rifles, revolvers, bombs, knives, knuckle-dusters, sticks, rags soaked in kerosene for starting fires... barbed wire, nails (against cavalry)… or acids to be poured on the police... The killing of spies, policemen, gendarmes, the blowing up of police stations... [must start] at a moment’s notice.”
In fact, the source describes revolutionary actions that had already been carried out by the spontaneous masses rather than as a terrorist conspiracy.
 : —This unsigned comment is by 76.191.230.178 (talkcontribs) .
The quotes you are removing are simply quotes that present Lenin in an unflattering light, and include those in works published by Yale University Press, HarperCollins, and the authoratative Collected Works — simply objecting to such unflattering quotes as probably "cherry-picked" by someone hostile to Lenin, no more disqualifies then from inclusion than quotes cherry-picked from the same or other sources to present more flattering impressions. That you object to the general tenor of the authors who produce these quotes does not automatically disqualify these quotes as from published sources of some notability. Any valid objections you can make to any of the specific quotes could be noted in commentary, but they should not simply be removed. ~ Kalki (talk · contributions) 11:10, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
Volkogonov was not a historian from a respected institution of higher education, but was a political hack whose work, as shown above, is not taken seriously. Pipes' book on Lenin is very controversial, which a leading scholarly journal Russian Review concludes is part of his "longstanding crusade to demonize Lenin." Had they been reliable source, they would not have encountered such controversy.
Nor am I removing quotations that portray Lenin in an unflattering light, as this article has plenty of them. I simply object to the highly tendentious series of edits by the anon.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 76.191.230.178 (talk) 11:22, 8 July 2010
Wheres the quote where Lenin said to the Russians don't make Stalin leader.
—This unsigned comment is by 195.194.238.110 (talkcontribs) .

The quotes in question are again being removed, and with no further reason given than that an anonymous editor from an IP asserts that these quotes from major publishers, such as Yale University Press, HarperCollins, and the authoratative Collected Works deserve no presentation, and that some of them are by historians the anonymous editor would assert are "political hacks" — I see no reason to remove any of these merely in response to such opinionated assertions and am restoring them once again. ~ Kalki (talk · contributions) 19:45, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Attempts at further removal of quotes have continued to this point from 76.191.230.178 (talk · contributions). I have left this message on this IP's talk page:
As noted previously, the removal from the Vladimir Lenin page of long standing sourced quotes from published sources without discussion is not welcome. I have retained your "alternative" suggestions, and can welcome further additions — but the removals you have made are such as I have reverted. The page needs much dating and linking of souce documents available and further additions are welcome, but deletions are not.
The removals have been made with such comments as "Already several quotes like this" — which might be argued for many quotes of many people, but that doesn't make them necessarily less notable historically; "Poorly organized" — this actually was a valid criticism of a quote in three parts, which could be to some extent edited better, which I did; and "Questionable source Volkgonov removed" — whatever one's opinions of Dmitri Volkogonov's opinions he was a major historian, widely respected by many, despite rejection or opposition to his assessments by others, and there is no reason provided why his citations of quotes of Lenin should be considered unreliable. I have restored MOST but not all of the quotes removed, because one quote from a section of a document already quoted did seem relatively minor in its points — but of the rest have been restored, though some were moved to places where they were variant translations of the same document. ~ Kalki (talk · contributions) 23:21, 19 July 2011 (UTC)
I have now done an extensive cleanup on the page, as there had been MANY sloppy additions and deletions made since the last general editing of page with recognition of normal requirements — and I have organized Lenin's quotes along standard chronological arrangements, with the exception of the Collected Works section — which is at least now arranged by volume, and I might gradually further date and arrange these by dates in coming weeks. ~ Kalki (talk · contributions) 13:18, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

UnsourcedEdit

  • Praxis is superior to Knowledge (theoretical), because it have not just the dignity of universality, but also of the immediate reality.

"Destroy the family...."Edit

There's a very popular quotation on the American right wing -- the assertion that Lenin said, "Destroy the family and you destroy the country" (or "...and you destroy the society"). My Google search for +Lenin +"destroy the family" yielded 35,000 hits. I checked about half a dozen of them and none of them offered any source.

In view of its popularity, it would be great if we could either find a source and add the quotation, or debunk it. If it seems not to be valid, we might include it in the "Misattributed" section, or we might start a "Disputed" section for apparent apocrypha, as is done in the Abraham Lincoln article. Jim Lane 00:07, 30 March 2011 (UTC)