To Do List
(add items that need to be addressed with the article, delete from list when complete)
- Remove duplicate quotes under images from text
RedThoreau 23:42, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- PLEASE NOTE: It has been a standard practice on Wikiquote to include original language quotes, as well as translations, especially on passages where accuracy is disputed, and the use of SUBJECT headings and footnotes are DISCOURAGED here. I have not time to go into more details right now, but am posting this brief comment. Please familiarize yourself with our formatting standards before doing drastic revisions to pages. ~ Kalki 22:40, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- I also wish to note that as this is Wikiquote and not Wikipedia, the images are usually used in conjunctions with quotations, and if not used as an introductory quotation, preferably somewhere near their placement in the body text, rather than with captions describing the images. ~ Kalki 22:51, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Do you have a link where it describes these "standard practices"? It is hard to believe that you wouldn't utilize source notes, randomly bold certain quotes with no rationale, would list quotes twice (under pics and in the text), would have large gaps in-between quotes as a result of picture placement, would have scores of unreferenced quotes etc. I find these issues to disappointing and unprofessional for a "Wiki" endeavor. RedThoreau 23:48, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
- Bolding for emphasis of famous or significant portions of statements has been discussed many times, and has been retained as an option available from the earliest days of the wiki. I have commented upon it on several occasions to those who do object to it, but now just usually point out some of the past discussions when the subject comes up.
I am in an EXTREMELY BUSY period with other things right now and currently don't have time to converse on matters here a great deal. I have to devote most my time to several other major concerns within the next few days and probably won't have time to do all I would like on these matters, and will likely have very little time to spend on this project for at least a few weeks.
You reverted my resotration of the previous state of Che Guevara, with a few minor revisions, to that of one with your massive revisions, with the comment "restoring page - I didn't do all that work for you to revert it all" — I did see that that you had made some useful additions, but you worked for about an hour, with many suppositions of how things should be arranged, and without familiarity or regard with some of the standard practices and guidelines which have developed here, upon a page many people have worked on and off for years, and I simply didn't have time to sort through all your major changes and retain all of the useful ones that may have occurred.
I am aware there are many deficiencies to that and many other pages, but we have a very few regular editors taking care of thousands of pages, and there is simply not time for the few of us to perfect them all. Source citations are provided interlinear fashion as is standard on many published quotation references, rather than in footnote fashion. Your help at sourcing unreferenced quotes would be appreciated, but we have sections for "sourced" and "unsourced" quotes on nearly all pages, as well as "Misattributed" sections for widely misattributed quotes.
We have discouraged the use of subject sections on pages for people for some time, though there are still many pages which have begun to use them abundantly, but this contrary to standard practice.
I am in a rush right now, as I will be leaving within the next hour, have many things to do, and will be gone for several more before I can check on anything further here at all. I will simply post a "welcome" message on your talk page for some of the standard guideline links. I don't have time to fully converse on everything right now. There might be some typos in this, as I have typed it rather fast, but I don't have time to check it fully right now. I will check back on things later. ~ Kalki 00:37, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I would like to see quote brackets used, as I believe it makes reading the quotes much easier. If you notice I have begun converting these quotes to - This bracket
RedThoreau 01:10, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Inclusion and then Trim
Right now I am going through his famous speeches, writings, books on him etc, and attempting to organize the quotes by source. This may take the weekend (or more time) but I believe that everyone will see a greatly improved final result. I am also going to include a larger number of quotes now ... and then trim them later based on notoriety/concensus (if anyone else joins in). RedThoreau 03:26, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
- I have broken down the sections by source and reference, which will now make it easier to list them as sourced. RedThoreau 04:19, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Please Allow Me A Few Days
To continue my large scale revamping of the article. If at weekends end, editors are unhappy with the new version, then we can revert. However, I believe that the new version will constitute one of the most complete articles on all of Wikiquote. RedThoreau 08:07, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I am not going to interfere with things on this page right now, because I simply don't have the time, but I will make a few remarks.
I can agree that the quotation mark icons look good, and that they are well employed on Wikipedia pages for the occasional quote, but they have been suggested here before, and I objected to them becase they are not necessary here, especially on the longer pages, impose a higher graphics burden on the pages without adding any significant information, and probably impose a heavier learning curve on new editors who aren't experienced Wikipedians.
I actually don't think it is a bad idea to allow people to experiment and improvise with the formatting of pages, especially new ones they create, and perhaps even maintain a few pages with slightly different formatting than normal, if the general group consensus agrees that it should be permitted. I still really don't think the quote mark icons should be used here as a standard practice on pages, despite their cosmetic attractiveness, though I have considered using them on the main page for the Quote of the day. The other formatting improvisations you have made also look good, but I prefer retaining the standard citation forms which have been established rather than making a call to revise the formatting of over 15000 pages with the handful of already overburdened regular editors which we have here.
I believe the Argentine flag icon also looks okay, but such marks aren't used on the Wikipedia article and there are already enough contentions about the "actual nationality" of famous figures like Einstein, Tesla, and such, without introducing further contentions about which flags of which nations, from what era, should be used in connection with them.
Though always recognizing the importance of graphics, for several reasons I originally objected to the use of them here before the Wikimedia Commons was established, but now that it has, I add them abundantly on many of the pages which I have time to work on, to make the pages more visually interesting, provide better visual cues for finding significant statements, and to better emphasize a few of them. As you probably noticed, having images on the left interferes with the standard formatting of quotes and their citations here, and I believe that a having all the images on the right on most pages works okay.
I also remain an advocate of bolding many of the more famous or significant statements, especially those within longer quotations, and believe this simply extends on the useful presentation of quotations which we are all involved in here.
I expect to be very busy with other things for at least several weeks, and I know that I have to complete several of the major time-consuming tasks on my agenda in the next couple of days, so I won't have time for much discussion here for at least a few days, but if there is to be debate about major changes to the basic formatting of this and/or other wikipedia pages it should probably occur on the village pump for at least a couple of weeks. ~ Kalki 12:34, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Restored normal formatting to this page
The one most obvious improvement made in the recent edits by Redthoreau was the return, once again, of the iconic photograph used at the top, which seems at last to have become accepted at the commons after it had several times been deleted as a suspected copyright violation. Hopefully this will now remain as previous objections to it seem to have been sufficiently answered in his posting of it there in April, and for that he does deserve credit and thanks. He also sourced a few of the quotes which were unsourced, and added new quotes. Many of the other changes are for the most part much more objectionable.
Other than the improvements mentioned above which I have retained in my recent edits, the changes which had recently been made seem to consist of enlarging the famous iconic photo of Che at the top, moving a few images to the left rather than the right, removing the captions which had existed from every image, removing numerous quotations, including almost all of the original spanish ones, removing many dates from source citations, and ignoring the standard bulleted formatting of nearly every other page at wikiquote in favor of using templates for having graphic quotation symbols on every quote. Most of those formatting changes and deletions have now been reverted.
Though addressing the changes made to this page remained on a list of things to do since the changes were first made, it was not a top priority for me to even closely examine them, and I simply had neither enough time nor interest until recently to begin to make the somewhat complicated and tedious edits that it took to restore deleted quotes and information, remove much of the new formatting, and NOT remove most of the new material which was added, as a straight revert would have done.
Though I remain interested in allowing any genuinely new formatting ideas to be suggested, I am not interested in simple repetition of already tried and rejected ideas, and certainly not when it also seems to have provided a confusing cover for the deletion of many quotes and a few links. I had indicated early on that the idea of entirely replacing the normal bulleted format with one of the more highly graphic intensive wikipedia quotation block formats actually had been suggested and rejected on other pages before. Such a format can make much sense on a few quotes on a wikipedia page — but it really does NOT for every quote on an entire Wikiquote page.
I also objected to the use of national flag icons to indicate nationality of persons, as both an unnecessary and potentially very contentious precedent, which could create battlegrounds of unneeded nationalistic icons on many pages, and this seems to be much of the case against their use at Wikipedia as well, despite some persisting efforts to include them.
In the future I believe I will strongly recommend that anyone interested in doing radically different format experimentation do it on a page they actually create, and not on a very large long-standing one, where the complicated edits that are made make it a tedious process to extricate new material they gradually added from whatever formatting changes and deletions which they also make.
I have also removed the rather heavily POV inflected intro that had been added, in favor of one slightly adapted from the one which exists at Wikipedia. Che's capture was certainly assisted by CIA information and involvement, and his execution may or may not have been recommended by some agents of the CIA, but to say it was a "CIA assisted execution" is factually inaccurate POV. It doesn't usually take all that much to kill an already captured man.
I also restored the standard "unsourced" section to the page, sourced a few of the quotes which were in it, deleted one link to a forum page, restored several non commercial links to archives and essays which had been removed, and moved the link for the highly commercialized "Che-Lives.com" from the top spot, where it had been very improperly placed, to the bottom of a section, as it certainly is not an "official" site, nor even primarily an information source, though it does provide some informational material, and therefore has been retained.
I have spent many hours over much of the last week completing the restoration of quotes and normal formatting, and then sourcing some of the unsourced quotes which had simply been removed, and adding a few new images and quotes. I might possibly do a bit more work on this within a few weeks, but will more likely concentrate what time I have available on much needed work on other pages. ~ Kalki 14:34, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
- Although I appreciate your work and edits as well ... I have reverted all my work that you recently reverted. You speak here on the talk page like you are the "sole" authority on how a page should look, what should be included etc. I have no desire for an edit war, and am willing to compromise on anything with the page. However, I strongly disagree with your removal of my tedious work to go through and source ALL Quotes included on the page, and put them in chronological order. An unsourced quote is worthless in my opinion (which I guess you obviously disagree on). Now I did not view the July 14 of this page as a final version (rather one in progress, where unsourced, Spanish quotes etc could still be added on) – Thus I believe it would be better for you to "add" onto my already fully sourced version, rather than to revert the countless hours of painstakingly investigation I conducted to find where the majority of those unsourced quotes came from. Furthermore, I had listed the quotes in chronological order, which I deem important to understanding the context in which they were made. I also had the quotes listed in their appropriate context (the speeches they were given). Randomly pulling unsourced quotes from thin air, with no surrounding contextual information, to me is extremely un-encyclopedic. I understand that you may just revert me back as well, and if that's the case I won't revert again - however I do hope that you will be willing to at least attempt to mesh our differing views on how to compile the page, as I am.RedThoreau 15:34, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Frankly, I find it hard to believe you appreciate my work and edits much at all, nor anyone else's work on the page and formats used on wikiquote, and I am simply asserting guidelines on formatting that have been used FOR YEARS and representing styles developed or retained by consensus FOR YEARS, and you are a relative newcomer who has behaved from the start of your editing as if you "are the 'sole' authority on how a page should look, what should be included etc."
Your statement that you strongly disagree with my removal of your "tedious work to go through and source ALL Quotes included on the page, and put them in chronological order" simply amounts to a mention of your willingness to remove ALL unsourced quotes, or quotes you yourself did not bother to source from the page. I DID source a few more of those which had been in the unsourced section which you had not, which indicates you probably could have done the same, if you'd been willing to do so. I also restored many SOURCED quotes and many dated citations which you simply removed. I do NOT know of any quotes I actually removed which you had added, as I don't recall having deliberately removed any, but if there were any I accidentally deleted in my own tedious work to RESTORE many things, I am quite willing to have them restored as well. I acknowledge you did much work, but to speak as if you did the most work on this page, or as if your edits were the primary ones, or entirely constructive rather than to a great extent DESTRUCTIVE and exclusionary, and with an apparent effort to censor and remove much material which had been on the page, is to make assertions which are simply false.
I provided a very detailed and honest summation of the edits I made in a tedious process of RESTORING quotes which had been present on the page for years, and formats used on nearly all the other pages since the project began, and not a "let me do whatever I want for a few days and I'll bet you like it better" comment. I'd been to busy to deal with the issue much when the edits began, and remain very busy, but as I think should be clear, I did not like it better, and I think the majority of regular editors here would agree. In a couple brief efforts prior to this week's I'd found the task of restoration too tedious to complete in a short time (without a simple revert, such as I was able to do on your last edit, which had simply ignored all my work and additions), and finally finished it after much work throughout the course of the last week. If anyone believes that the restoration of the quotes, captions, links, and standard bullet format, as well as the few image and quote additions I made should be objected to, I don't believe that there is a very strong case for it. ~ Kalki 17:49, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
I have just done a little more sourcing of the unsourced quotes, and wish to note that while it is immensely preferable to source all quotes, we have always had sections for unsourced quotes here, as there are often statements which are widely quoted which we should acknowledge, and gradually seek to properly source, or show to be certainly or probably misattributted. I stated in my notes above that I don't recall deliberately removing any of your additions, but I know that I did move some quotes which had been improperly sourced to the misattributed section, which does indicate that even sourced quotes can be mistakenly sourced. ~ Kalki 18:55, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
Let's try this again :o)
Kalki, I find it unfortunate that you may have taken in my view an "needlessly aggressive" tone, but I also acknowledge that you may have viewed my edits as such as well. Thus I am going to attempt to start this conversation over. At the outset, I apologize if you feel that I was devaluing your contributions (that was not my intention) although I acknowledge that you could have rightfully viewed my edits as such. I also had a desire to continue work on the page and re-include many of the quotes which you restored as well, but had unfortunately gotten bogged down recently, and thus I realize that in your view you could have perceived the current product as my completed effort - which it was not. I am not going to revert you again, and I have no desire for an edit war, nor a hostile editing relationship. Here are some of my concerns with the article at present, and I will number them so you can respond to them if you wish.
(1) Random and arbitrary bolding. I consider myself very well versed on all the statements by Che Guevara and his life, and find it hard to decipher a potential rationale for why certain phrases are bolded and others are not. What is your rationale for these decisions? (2) Quotes under pictures. When the quote is under an image, it does not list its source with it - which I feel all quotes should. Also are these not double listed - listed once in the body and again under the pictures? Wouldn't it be better to list these quotes one time only? (3) Out of chronological order. Like any human being Guevara's opinions on the world, revolution, economics etc adapted and were transformed over time and with his experiences. Thus I find it more complete of an endeavor to list these in chronological order, so that a reader can gain knowledge of his evolving philosophical thought and personal remunerations. Do you disagree with this? And if so why? (4) Image placement. At present the way they are placed leaves large giant blank spaces in certain sections. Hence why I had previously placed them to prevent this. Do you not find these large blank gaps unacceptable? Do you not find this placement troublesome and unprofessional? (5) Variant translations of insignificant difference. Is it necessary to list an entire paragraph quote again to offer an alternative translation with a word or two difference, which for all intents and purposes does not change the inherent meaning of the quote? When translating from Spanish there will inevitable be slight differences in literal interpretation. ----- Lastly, I want to thank you for the work you have done on the page and formally acknowledge your efforts which I do appreciate. I hope to work with you in the future and combine both of our efforts to create as good a page as possible. Furthermore, I appreciate your reply to these issues, should you address them. RedThoreau 19:06, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- I might not have time to respond much more here today, but briefly addressing a few of your statements on:
- (1) Random and arbitrary bolding.
- The option of bolding key statements or some of the more famous or notable passages within a large quotation is one I have promoted since the earliest days of Wikiquote, and though some use of it on some pages might arguably be considered "arbitrary" or excessive, I continue to believe it to be a useful extension of the selection processes we are all engaged in even when we add quotes. I have responded to objections to it in the past, but now when the matter comes up I usually provide links to some of my past discussions, such as I made a couple years ago at User_talk:Kalki/2006#Bolding..., and a few other places, rather than continuously repeating the points made.
- (2) Quotes under pictures.
- Adding captions with selected quotes to images is hardly an idea original to Wikiquote, and are used in many magazines and books. I don't believe that quotes used within captions need to be sourced in the captions, nor need to be presented only once on the page. Aside from an image or two at the top of a page, I believe the images should be placed in the vicinity of the quote used for its caption, and making these quotes easier to find or notice, especially on large pages is one of the useful functions of images.
- (3) Out of chronological order.
- There can be occasional errors made, especially when editing large pages, but I certainly have no objection to maintaining chronological order. Standard guidelines on Wikiquote have long promoted chronological order for individual quotes, according to creation dates or the published sources available, and then chronological order of sections for specific sources with many quotes, preferably with a sequential presentation of quotes within those. I certainly do not feel there should be a seperate section created for every available source of quotes, but that sections should usually only be created when there are several quotes from a single source. Your previous edits also simply removed many fully or partially sourced quotes which you did not create separate sections for.
- One exception to chronological order on pages for people is in the "Quotes about" sections of articles where it is usually much simpler to provide an alphabetical-by-author listing of quotes.
- (4) Image placement.
- There are usually a wide variety of options for image placement, but as I stated, I feel they should be used with captions for the presentation of quotes, and usually placed in the general vicinity of where the quote appears on the page. This can sometimes create some aesthetically displeasing gaps where no images have yet been used, but I don't believe that simply using images without quotes is preferable or all that useful. Though I am aware that some images on some pages do not have captions with quotes, I do believe that most eventually should.
- (5) Variant translations of insignificant difference.
- I do believe it is appropriate to use variant translations when they are available, but I agree that many of these on this particular page are rather slight, and might originate in different editions of the same work. One reason for providing them is that people might be searching the internet for one of the variants available, and not find it, nor the other variants available here.
- I acknowledge I can sometimes be rather harsh in some of my assertions, but I would assert there was some harshness appropriate, as you had clearly removed much material, wrongly claimed I was doing so, and seemed to be agressively disregarding many long established guidelines here. I myself am very averse to creating any absolute rules which I don't consider absolutely necessary about anything, and thus have seldom been involved in creating any mandatory ones here, but I do believe in maintaining certain established practices until clearly better ones become available, and which most people involved can accept or agree to. I am not at all hostile to any of the actual additions you made or to further additions you might wish to make, but do at this point remain hostile to any major formatting changes. ~ Kalki 21:23, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
- La revolución no se lleva en los labios para vivir de ella, se lleva en el corazón para morir por ella.
- The revolution is not carried in the lips to live on, it is carried in the heart for die for.
- Variant translation: The revolution lives on not in words to live for it, but in one's heart to die for it.
- No se vive celebrando victorias, sino superando derrotas.
- Live your life not celebrating victories, but overcoming defeats.
- El conocimiento nos hace responsables.
- Knowledge makes us accountable.
- I was born in Argentina; this is no secret for anyone. I am Cuban as well as Argentinean and, if the highly illustrated lordships of Latin America may not feel offended, I feel such a patriotism for Latin America, for any country in Latin America, that in the moment it might be necessary, I would be ready to yield my life for the liberation of any Latin American nation, without asking anybody anything, without demanding anything, without exploiting anyone.
- No enemy, no forces should be underestimated — for there are no longer any isolated nations. As established by the second declaration in Havana, no nation in Latin America is weak, for it belongs to a family of 200 million brothers who all live in the same poverty and all have the same feelings. They all have the same enemy, they all dream of a better life and they count on the solidarity of all righteous people. This elegy of ours will be written by starving indians, by landless peasants, by exploited workers, by the progressive masses, by honest and brilliant intellectuals of which there are so many in Latin America.
--The quotation above comes from a speech by Ché. I don't know the date, but he was filmed and recorded delivering it. This is the English subtitle for the speech used in the film "Sacrificio: Who Betrayed Che Guevara?" There is an extract of this speech here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QNQU9rRcfk0 --Rivergod 10:04, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
- Under the discredited flag of the United Nations, dozens of countries under the military leadership of the United States participated in this war with the massive intervention of U.S. soldiers and the use, as cannon fodder, of the South Korean population that was enrolled.
- Words that do not match deeds are unimportant.
- While envisaging the destruction of imperialism, it is necessary to identify its head, which is no other than the United States of America.
"To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary. These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a revolution! And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate." As quoted in The Cuban Revolution : Years of Promise (2005) by Teo A. Babun and Victor Andres Triay, p. 57
This quote is completely out of character, it goes against everything Guevara ever said. Even compare is with other quotes on this page. Please could someone either confirm it of delete it. Thanks.
- The quote doesn't appear in any of the major biographies, none of the books by Che, none of his speeches, etc. It doesn't even show up in print until 2005 in 3 attack books of Guevara - who all then cite one another with no original source for the quotes origin. Thus I removed it until some original sourcing can be found. RedThoreau 08:53, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
I have restored the quote to the page, creating a "Disputed" section, and stating some of the reasons why there are legitimate questions about the authenticity of this remark:
- To send men to the firing squad, judicial proof is unnecessary. These procedures are an archaic bourgeois detail. This is a revolution! And a revolutionary must become a cold killing machine motivated by pure hate.
- As quoted in The Cuban Revolution : Years of Promise (2005) by Teo A. Babun and Victor Andres Triay, p. 57, without citation of sources; neither original sources nor published occurrences of this statement prior to 2005 have been located.
I have always recommended that such disputed, or in some cases clearly bogus quotes be maintained on the pages, with information regarding them, as a means of contending with or refuting unwarranted claims about them. ~ Kalki 10:40, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
Che Guevara's racist remarks
The following quotes in which Che Guevara is expressing racist thoughts should be included. They are all taken from his own biography; The Motorcycle Diaries:
"The blacks, those magnificent examples of the African race who have maintained their racial purity thanks to their lack of an affinity with bathing, have seen their territory invaded by a new kind of slave: the Portuguese."
"The black is indolent and a dreamer; spending his meager wage on frivolity or drink; the European has a tradition of work and saving, which has pursued him as far as this corner of America and drives him to advance himself, even independently of his own individual aspirations."
"The episode upset us a little because the poor man, apart from being homosexual and a first-rate bore, had been very nice to us, giving us 10 soles each, bringing our total to 479 for me and 163 1/2 to Alberto."
"The first person we hit on was the mayor, someone called Cohen; we had heard a lot about him, that he was Jewish as far as money was concerned but a good sort."
--BobbyGalt 23:29, 24 April 2011 (UTC)
- I actually find nothing all that notable about these quotes; though they may be legitimate, I myself have no interest in adding them to the article, and perceiving them to have relatively little significance as quoted, might have some objection to them being added without significant context — though I have restored this comment, after someone removed it as mere trolling — I consider it a valid suggestion — but not one I agree with. ~ Kalki (talk · contributions) 05:04, 29 May 2011 (UTC),
- There are an array of problems with BobbyGalt's original suggestion and implication ... (since this issue has come up before on the main Wikipedia article, I am going to reuse parts from those discussions)
- (1) The last two comments are not even "racist" – which shows that the original poster (this was his first and only edit ever to Wikiquote) is just copying and pasting something he obviously found on a blog etc. As for the "Jewish" comment, biographer Jon Lee Anderson on pg 33-34 of Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life points out how the young Guevara belonged to an "anti-fascist" cell during WWII with his Jewish friend Raul Melivosky and that Ernesto was the only student to stand up to a "notoriously pro-Nazi history professor".
- (2) As for the first two comments, they are actually part of an incomplete passage (out of an 150 pg diary) that is not only taken out of its textual context – but its historical context with its implication that this is a view that Guevara held throughout his life. In fact biographer Jon Lee Anderson on pg 92 of Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life addresses this passage and explains how his views evolved in the preceding months following this July 17, 1952 diary passage which Guevara wrote as a 24 year old. According to Anderson, Guevara and his friend Alberto Granado had just arrived in the city of Caracas, Venezuela, which at this time was "swollen with migrants" as a result of the nation’s oil boom. As a result the hillsides were draped with "squalid worker slums" comprised of a mostly Afro-Hispanic (black) population. Anderson goes on to state how Guevara up to that point, except for a few brief instances in his life, had never "been around black people" (which were a rarity in his native Argentina) especially for someone of Che’s economic & social class. On this occasion Guevara after meandering through a local "barrio" (slum) made a written "observation" that Anderson states was "reflective" of the "arrogance and condescension" of a "stereotypical white Argentinean" (especially in 1952). The full diary passage that Anderson includes is as follows:
- "The blacks, those magnificent examples of the African race who have conserved their racial purity by a lack of affinity with washing, have seen their patch invaded by a different kind of slave: The Portuguese. These two races now share a common experience, fraught with bickering and squabbling. Discrimination, and poverty unite them in a daily battle for survival but their different attitudes to life separate them completely: the black is indolent and fanciful, he spends his money on frivolity and drink; the European comes from a tradition of working and saving which follows him to this corner of America and drives him to get ahead, even independently, of his own individual aspirations."
- (3) Of importance however, Anderson notes two pages later [pg 94] how after visiting the U.S. for a brief time (30 days in Miami), directly after he made this observation, Guevara complained to friends about "white discrimination against blacks" that he had witnessed.
- (4) This coincides with the end of Guevara’s journey 3 months later (after the "indolent" remarks), when Guevara then states that he "is not the man he once was" and declares himself a transformed individual.
- (5) As for whether this remark makes Che racist, what we do know from his later life is that, (a) Che pushed for racially integrating the schools in Cuba, years before they were racially integrated in the Southern United States. (b) Che's friend and personal bodyguard shown here (who accompanied him at all times after 1959) was Harry "Pombo" Villegas, who was Afro-Cuban (black). Pombo accompanied Che to the Congo and to Bolivia, where he survived and now lives in Cuba. Of note, Pombo speaks positively of Guevara to this day shown here. (c) When Che spoke before the U.N. in 1964, he spoke out in favor of black musician Paul Robeson, in support of slain black leader Patrice Lumumba (who he heralded as one of his heroes), against white segregation in the Southern U.S., and against the white South African apartheid regime. (d) When Guevara ventured to the Congo, he fought with a Cuban force of 100 Afro-Cubans (blacks) shown here including those black Congolese fighters who he fought alongside against a force comprised partly of white South African mercenaries. This resembled the fight in Cuba, where Che's units were also made up of mostly mulattos and blacks. (e) Later Guevara offered assistance to fight alongside the (black) FRELIMO in Mozambique shown here & here, for their independence from the Portuguese. (f) Per this --> BBC article we have the recent remarks by Che's black Swahili interpreter in the Congo (Dr. Freddy Ilanga) that the later Guevara "showed the same respect to black people as he did to whites." (g) Lastly, in August 1961 (9 years after his "indolent" remark), Guevara attacked the U.S. for "discrimination against blacks, and outrages by the Ku Klux Klan", which matched his declarations in 1964 before the United Nations (12 years after his "indolent" remark), where Guevara denounced the United States policy towards their black population, stating:
- "Those who kill their own children and discriminate daily against them because of the color of their skin; those who let the murderers of blacks remain free, protecting them, and furthermore punishing the black population because they demand their legitimate rights as free men — how can those who do this consider themselves guardians of freedom?"
- Now despite all of these issues, could Che have still been racist against blacks or secretly found them "indolent?" I guess so, but these actions (as his biographers Anderson, Castaneda and Taibo note) especially in the 1960’s do not resemble a man with racist attitudes towards black people. Most biographers, claim that this unfortunate early "observation" by Guevara, represented his opinion as a young 24 year old venturing out amongst other races for the first time, and do not represent the man whom the world would later know as Che.
- (6) Now is it worthy of inclusion in this Wikiquote article? I don’t believe so and agree with Kalki. Redthoreau 08:08, 29 May 2011 (UTC)
- If Che was anti-semite or homophobic, its debatable. But acording to solid sources, he did had racial sentiments.
"He (Che Guevara) despised blacks... He always was in conflict with Juan Almeida Bosque, who he used to call el negrito..." "...then, he despised indians, he used to said -the illiterate indians of mexico-" (Miguel Sanchez "el coreano" - Che Guevara, el falso heroe Documentary)
"...They said that because he (Che Guevara) called thing for their names, and he used to said negro with no doubt, negro for luck o misfortune, but negro and not of color, of what color?" (Dariel Alarcon - Interview)
If the wikiquote include racist quotes of Abraham Lincon, why not about Che Guevara? --188.8.131.52 16:35, 15 September 2012 (UTC)
Restoration of a few quotes
Several quotes were recently removed, originally with the rationale that there should not be two quotes by the same person — I rejected that rationale and restored them, after which they have were again removed with the summary statement that even without such a rule, they should be removed because "these say similar things to the ones present." I do not accept that as an entirely valid reason either, but list the quotes I am once again restoring here — along with other statements by the authors which were retained by the removal.
- Che is a figure who can constantly be examined and re-examined. To the younger, post-cold-war generation of Latin Americans, Che stands up as the perennial Icarus, a self-immolating figure who represents the romantic tragedy of youth. Their Che is not just a potent figure of protest, but the idealistic, questioning kid who exists in every society and every time.
- These remarks are significantly different than: I have yet to find a single credible source pointing to a case where Che executed "an innocent". Those persons executed by Guevara or on his orders were condemned for the usual crimes punishable by death at times of war or in its aftermath: desertion, treason or crimes such as rape, torture or murder.
- Che sowed the seeds of social conscience in Latin America and the world, he was a flower prematurely cut from its stem.
- This is significantly different than Castro's statement: "Why did they think that by killing him, he would cease to exist as a fighter? ... Today he is in every place, wherever there is a just cause to defend."
- He always did what he said he was going to do, That's why he is still timely.
- I see no strong reason to remove this though I acknowledge that part of this one is somewhat similar in theme to: "What I appreciated most was his honesty — and his ability to transform negative things into positive things. ... he was not compromising. It wasn't easy unless you shared his vision and believed in it."
- We feel sick about this grand show that goes on every year on the anniversary of his death. Rather than honour a man who came to invade the country, we should honour the armed forces, the soldiers who defended the country.
- Bolivian General Gary Prado Salmon, commander of the mission to capture Guevara, "Che Guevara Honored 40 Years After Death" at AHN News (11 October 2007)
- This is significantly more extensive criticism than : The myth of the holy Che must finally be destroyed.
- Che Guevara executed dozens and dozens of people who never once stood trial and were never declared guilty … In his own words, he said the following: "At the smallest of doubt we must execute." And that's what he did at the Sierra Maestra and the prison of Las Cabanas.
- Armando Valladares, in "‘Che’ spurs debate, Del Toro walkout" in The Washington Times (27 January 2009)
- This is significantly more extensive and notable criticism than: He was a man full of hatred.
I have restored the quotes in question, and do not see any strong reason to remove any of them, and the only one I can agree could be removed as perhaps repetitive is "He always did what he said he was going to do, That's why he is still timely." ~ Kalki (talk · contributions) 11:00, 29 May 2011 (UTC)